4 ms·

You provide 3 sources, yet don't cite a source for the claim that ~10k have died from the vaccine. Could we have a citation for that one?

jeromegv 5y ago
That person is writing in a way that looks fact based but is not. As you noticed, some statements of what is supposed to be accepted as true are false. For example, all the vaccines still protect extremely well against hospitalization and death EVEN with Delta. Which is what this whole discussion is about, why vaccines help to keep our hospitals open. So the fact that they would say that the vaccine isn't really helpful anymore because of delta is just purely false.
- kcplate 5y ago
  I think this whole “rah rah do it for the community” is the wrong message to send to the final group of the unvaccinated. The government needs to message on the benefit to the individual. I can tell you that the ONLY reason I am vaccinated is because I want to maximize my chances of the negative consequences of Covid impact TO ME. I honestly don’t give two shits about anyone else outside my family. As some of you do gooders read this in horror, realize that among the general populace, most people’s motivation behind their decision to vaccinate is not that far from mine. No one likes to admit it, but objectivism and what’s in it for me are a lot more prevalent than folks like to admit. If our government was smart, they’d realize that and shift the message accordingly.
  - mike00632 5y ago
    If you die then it will be really bad for the economy, and you don't want a bad economy, do you?
    - kcplate 5y ago
      As long as I am not resurrected into said bad economy, I’m ok with it.
- OrvalWintermute 5y ago
  The current number is 14,506 deaths from covid vaccines according to https://vaersanalysis.info/2021/09/10/vaers-summary-for-covid-19-vaccines-through-9-03-2021/ https://vaersanalysis.info/2021/09/10/vaers-summary-for-covi... The last time I did the data reports from VAERS, it appears the numbers were tweaked after the fact, and that was some time ago. However, there is also data with different numbers at https://openvaers.com/covid-data https://openvaers.com/covid-data If you believe the VAERS under-reporting phenomenon is correct, then numbers could be significantly higher. Because the data is not verified though, there are bound to be data quality issues, both under and over.
neuro_image2 5y ago
He can't, because it's garbage.
- opnitro 5y ago
  Hey I have my suspicions but wanted to ask first :)
- OrvalWintermute 5y ago
  Going to suggest that rather than mudslinging, you do the work of looking at VAERS [1] yourself Alternatively, you could use VAERSanalysis [2], or Openvaers [3] In this spirit of openness, here is also an NPR article [4] on VAERS data quality/verification issues, and how the data may not be considered high quality, that anti-vaxxers use it to spread disinformation. I'm adding that specifically because it is the contrary opinion about the quality of the data and I believe in an open debate. I am not an anti-vaxxer, being up on all my vaccines, and then some due to overseas work, along with one experimental vaccine, but not covid vaccinated yet. [1] https://vaers.hhs.gov/ https://vaers.hhs.gov/ [2] https://vaersanalysis.info/2021/09/10/vaers-summary-for-covid-19-vaccines-through-9-03-2021/ https://vaersanalysis.info/2021/09/10/vaers-summary-for-covi... [3] https://openvaers.com/covid-data https://openvaers.com/covid-data [4] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/06/14/1004757554/anti-vaccine-activists-use-a-federal-database-to-spread-fear-about-covid-vaccine https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/06/14/1004757...
  - mike00632 5y ago
    Quick reminder that VAERS isn't a legitimate source. The data there is unverified.
    - nradov 5y ago
      VAERS has some data quality problems, however the CDC considers it a legitimate source. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/ad...
OrvalWintermute 5y ago
I actually looked in VAERS and did an export of the accessible data. Most of the numbers touted are generally around 10k, although VAERS underreporting is a well-known issue, and, VAERS data quality is suspect in the first place, by design. If you want a website that has more data though: https://vaersanalysis.info/2021/09/10/vaers-summary-for-covid-19-vaccines-through-9-03-2021/ https://vaersanalysis.info/2021/09/10/vaers-summary-for-covi...
- mike00632 5y ago
  Isn't citing VAERS on anti-vax bingo?

jeromegv 5y ago

That person is writing in a way that looks fact based but is not. As you noticed, some statements of what is supposed to be accepted as true are false. For example, all the vaccines still protect extremely well against hospitalization and death EVEN with Delta. Which is what this whole discussion is about, why vaccines help to keep our hospitals open. So the fact that they would say that the vaccine isn't really helpful anymore because of delta is just purely false.

kcplate 5y ago
I think this whole “rah rah do it for the community” is the wrong message to send to the final group of the unvaccinated. The government needs to message on the benefit to the individual. I can tell you that the ONLY reason I am vaccinated is because I want to maximize my chances of the negative consequences of Covid impact TO ME. I honestly don’t give two shits about anyone else outside my family. As some of you do gooders read this in horror, realize that among the general populace, most people’s motivation behind their decision to vaccinate is not that far from mine. No one likes to admit it, but objectivism and what’s in it for me are a lot more prevalent than folks like to admit. If our government was smart, they’d realize that and shift the message accordingly.
- mike00632 5y ago
  If you die then it will be really bad for the economy, and you don't want a bad economy, do you?
  - kcplate 5y ago
    As long as I am not resurrected into said bad economy, I’m ok with it.
OrvalWintermute 5y ago
The current number is 14,506 deaths from covid vaccines according to https://vaersanalysis.info/2021/09/10/vaers-summary-for-covid-19-vaccines-through-9-03-2021/ https://vaersanalysis.info/2021/09/10/vaers-summary-for-covi... The last time I did the data reports from VAERS, it appears the numbers were tweaked after the fact, and that was some time ago. However, there is also data with different numbers at https://openvaers.com/covid-data https://openvaers.com/covid-data If you believe the VAERS under-reporting phenomenon is correct, then numbers could be significantly higher. Because the data is not verified though, there are bound to be data quality issues, both under and over.

neuro_image2 5y ago

He can't, because it's garbage.

opnitro 5y ago
Hey I have my suspicions but wanted to ask first :)
OrvalWintermute 5y ago
Going to suggest that rather than mudslinging, you do the work of looking at VAERS [1] yourself Alternatively, you could use VAERSanalysis [2], or Openvaers [3] In this spirit of openness, here is also an NPR article [4] on VAERS data quality/verification issues, and how the data may not be considered high quality, that anti-vaxxers use it to spread disinformation. I'm adding that specifically because it is the contrary opinion about the quality of the data and I believe in an open debate. I am not an anti-vaxxer, being up on all my vaccines, and then some due to overseas work, along with one experimental vaccine, but not covid vaccinated yet. [1] https://vaers.hhs.gov/ https://vaers.hhs.gov/ [2] https://vaersanalysis.info/2021/09/10/vaers-summary-for-covid-19-vaccines-through-9-03-2021/ https://vaersanalysis.info/2021/09/10/vaers-summary-for-covi... [3] https://openvaers.com/covid-data https://openvaers.com/covid-data [4] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/06/14/1004757554/anti-vaccine-activists-use-a-federal-database-to-spread-fear-about-covid-vaccine https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/06/14/1004757...
- mike00632 5y ago
  Quick reminder that VAERS isn't a legitimate source. The data there is unverified.
  - nradov 5y ago
    VAERS has some data quality problems, however the CDC considers it a legitimate source. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/ad...

OrvalWintermute 5y ago

I actually looked in VAERS and did an export of the accessible data. Most of the numbers touted are generally around 10k, although VAERS underreporting is a well-known issue, and, VAERS data quality is suspect in the first place, by design. If you want a website that has more data though: https://vaersanalysis.info/2021/09/10/vaers-summary-for-covid-19-vaccines-through-9-03-2021/ https://vaersanalysis.info/2021/09/10/vaers-summary-for-covi...

mike00632 5y ago
Isn't citing VAERS on anti-vax bingo?