6 ms·

They would reduce transmission of the virus in the same way that locking everyone in temperature-controlled air-corrected 24/7-monitored government housing pods

They would reduce transmission of the virus in the same way that locking everyone in temperature-controlled air-corrected 24/7-monitored government housing pods would reduce the transmission. Maybe those pods are better, because they could ship us food and let us out for exercise at times determined by an efficiency algorithm! The question is, is the cost worth it? There's no need for a "sacrifice of individual liberty for safety." That's Orwellian talk for going along with tyranny. By this point, the majority of Americans are going to have antibodies before long from a combination of vaccinations and past covid. Over 100 million already had past covid and I already shared links about how those antibodies are superior to two shots of Pfizer. So how is it necessary for those people to have to subject to a "papers please" tyranny? No thanks. Implementing these passports will cause something even worse than some covid spread to happen. A two-tiered society where one segment of society is viewed as unhealthy, unclean, even dangerous. History is replete with examples of this being a bad thing. And philosophy aside, there's also newer evidence showing that for some segments of the population it may be riskier to vaccinate. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/10/boys-more-at-risk-from-pfizer-jab-side-effect-than-covid-suggests-study https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/10/boys-more-at-r... So why start enforcing passports? To accidentally find out later on, after creating a two-tiered society, that there may be unintended long-term consequences for the teenagers? Nope. Time for YOU, reader, to say no and realize that these passports are just about control. They don't care about your health. It's about power. Think critically about the system being built. It's about the control.

jowday 5y ago
It sounds like you just disagree with the tradeoff between liberty and safety, then. But it does lower transmission, and flashing a card before you go into a bar the same way you flash your driver's license isn't as onerous as the weird government pod scenario you outlined above. >unhealthy, unclean, even dangerous. This is probably how I'd describe wilfully unvaccinated people, yeah. Also curious where you got the 100 million number from - AFAICT there have been 40 million covid infections in the US.
- throwawayfear 5y ago
  Over 100 million Americans have superior antibodies from past covid. Why would you WILLINGLY describe those like that who refuse the vaccination as unhealthy, unclean, and even dangerous? Unless you're naive and don't know history? Or perhaps you simply keep ignoring the links being provided because you've been tricked by the narrative and it feels good to be tribal/partisan about it as if it's a matter of politics? It won't be long now until everyone has antibodies one way or another, yet people falling for the "vax vs unvax" narrative are going to create a problem much worse than covid if they insist on drawing battle lines and inching closer and closer to full-on dehumanization of tens of millions. Source for how many people had covid: https://www.publichealth.columbia.edu/public-health-now/news/one-three-americans-already-had-covid-19-end-2020 https://www.publichealth.columbia.edu/public-health-now/news... Anew study published in the journal Nature estimates that 103 million Americans, or 31 percent of the U.S. population, had been infected with SARS-CoV-2 by the end of 2020 The number you mentioned is the number verified, but based on the modeling of infection rates and spread they've come up with the bigger number. It will keep getting bigger. In any case, "flashing a card" to go into a bar is the precipice of the slippery slope. And yes, it's slippery. It doesn't take much effort to see the writing on the wall and observe the tyranny emerging in other places. If you're not simply ignorant to history and being tricked by the narrative, at least be honest about what you actually want - which is to control others. Don't try to pass it off as being concerned about health though, I wasn't born yesterday.
  - jowday 5y ago
    I missed your link in the parent - if there's plenty of evidence that getting the vaccine is actually more risky for a certain group than not getting it, sure, let's avoid giving them the vaccine. It should be obvious that when I say "willingly unvaccinated" I mean people who aren't at risk or have a condition that prevents them from getting vaccinated who refuse it. >If you're not simply ignorant to history and being tricked by the narrative, at least be honest about what you actually want - which is to control others. I want to keep myself and my loved ones safe - I've got 3 different family members who are both vulnerable to COVID and require in-home care. It's not feasible for them to self-isolate.
michaelmrose 5y ago
It's not an accidentally two tiered society it's an entirely conscious effort to exclude those who won't protect their fellows and it's unlikely to be limited to the present crisis. When this crisis is gone someday there will be another and we will want to be prepared to handle it better than we have this one. Incidentally boys have an outsized share of the risk of complications but still less than the risk of covid. The correct thing to do is take the minimum effort to protect yourself and others and stop complaining.
- ikr678 5y ago
  Some of the costs of your choice to forgo vaccination are pushed onto the community, and so the community is entitled to set rules to minimise those costs. We accept this sort of risk management in many other domains, where your individual choices impose may introduce external damages(Pet bonds for renters?) but Americans don't seem to think it fair in this situation for some reason.
  - throwawayfear 5y ago
    This is a false dilemma. It is a dishonest position to take. I can only hope you're doing it with well intentions. But the reality of the matter is that 100 million Americans had covid by now, which means they have antibodies that are superior to those derived from vaccination. See the sources above. The "community" is not entitled to set rules to "minimize those costs." That's some Orwellian dictatorial nonsense. It would justify all kinds of evil. And it has justified all kinds of evil throughout history when sides were drawn this way and one side dehumanized the other. We don't think this way in America because we remember history, our own and the rest of the world's. We have experience. And there are those of us who are still old enough to remember. Edit for sources higher up the conv tree: https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-on... The natural immune protection that develops after a SARS-CoV-2 infection offers considerably more of a shield against the Delta variant of the pandemic coronavirus than two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, according to a large Israeli study that some scientists wish came with a “Don’t try this at home” label. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-covid-prevents-delta-infection-better-than-pfizer-shot https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-...
kelnos 5y ago
It's really hard to take you seriously when you are trying to equate a vaccine passport with locking everyone in monitored, isolated, government-run housing pods. > There's no need for a "sacrifice of individual liberty for safety." We sacrifice individual liberty for safety every day. People who aren't licensed to drive don't get behind the wheel, and if they do and get caught, the punishments are stiff. > Implementing these passports will cause something even worse than some covid spread to happen. A two-tiered society where one segment of society is viewed as unhealthy, unclean, even dangerous. If you are choosing not to get vaccinated[0], then you are dangerous. You are literally a hazard to public health. You are easy incubation grounds for new virus variants that can evade the protection of the vaccines we have now. You are selfishly pushing the consequences of a possible infection on your family and friends, and on the doctors and nurses who may have to treat you. All because you've decided to politicize a vaccine. A vaccine, for crying out loud! It's absurd. > Time for YOU, reader, to say no and realize that these passports are just about control. They don't care about your health. It's about power. Think critically about the system being built. It's about the control. I mean, sure, there are a lot of things in this world that are more about control than their stated purpose. Public school curricula, airport security, organized religion. The list goes on. And sure, I bet some people get their rocks off telling people they can or can't go to their favorite bar or restaurant because of their health care choices. But the bottom line is that we're not getting out of this pandemic without mass vaccination or natural immunity. And the time it'll take us to get to natural immunity will involve years of orders of magnitude more deaths, the constant overloading of our heath care system, and doctors and nurses quitting en masse as they cease to be able to deal with it all anymore. Even if we accept for a moment that no one in power cares about public health, I think it's safe to accept that they do care about the economy, because that's how they continue to line their pockets. The economy doesn't look so good in places where people don't care about trying to beat back the pandemic. [0] Even though this isn't a thing, I absolutely support the idea of a "post-infection immunity card". We should define what level of antibodies conveys enough immunity, and give people antibody tests and issue them cards if their antibody counts qualify. Those cards should be accepted wherever proof of vaccination is accepted.
- throwawayfear 5y ago

jowday 5y ago

It sounds like you just disagree with the tradeoff between liberty and safety, then. But it does lower transmission, and flashing a card before you go into a bar the same way you flash your driver's license isn't as onerous as the weird government pod scenario you outlined above. >unhealthy, unclean, even dangerous. This is probably how I'd describe wilfully unvaccinated people, yeah. Also curious where you got the 100 million number from - AFAICT there have been 40 million covid infections in the US.

throwawayfear 5y ago
Over 100 million Americans have superior antibodies from past covid. Why would you WILLINGLY describe those like that who refuse the vaccination as unhealthy, unclean, and even dangerous? Unless you're naive and don't know history? Or perhaps you simply keep ignoring the links being provided because you've been tricked by the narrative and it feels good to be tribal/partisan about it as if it's a matter of politics? It won't be long now until everyone has antibodies one way or another, yet people falling for the "vax vs unvax" narrative are going to create a problem much worse than covid if they insist on drawing battle lines and inching closer and closer to full-on dehumanization of tens of millions. Source for how many people had covid: https://www.publichealth.columbia.edu/public-health-now/news/one-three-americans-already-had-covid-19-end-2020 https://www.publichealth.columbia.edu/public-health-now/news... Anew study published in the journal Nature estimates that 103 million Americans, or 31 percent of the U.S. population, had been infected with SARS-CoV-2 by the end of 2020 The number you mentioned is the number verified, but based on the modeling of infection rates and spread they've come up with the bigger number. It will keep getting bigger. In any case, "flashing a card" to go into a bar is the precipice of the slippery slope. And yes, it's slippery. It doesn't take much effort to see the writing on the wall and observe the tyranny emerging in other places. If you're not simply ignorant to history and being tricked by the narrative, at least be honest about what you actually want - which is to control others. Don't try to pass it off as being concerned about health though, I wasn't born yesterday.
- jowday 5y ago
  I missed your link in the parent - if there's plenty of evidence that getting the vaccine is actually more risky for a certain group than not getting it, sure, let's avoid giving them the vaccine. It should be obvious that when I say "willingly unvaccinated" I mean people who aren't at risk or have a condition that prevents them from getting vaccinated who refuse it. >If you're not simply ignorant to history and being tricked by the narrative, at least be honest about what you actually want - which is to control others. I want to keep myself and my loved ones safe - I've got 3 different family members who are both vulnerable to COVID and require in-home care. It's not feasible for them to self-isolate.

michaelmrose 5y ago

It's not an accidentally two tiered society it's an entirely conscious effort to exclude those who won't protect their fellows and it's unlikely to be limited to the present crisis. When this crisis is gone someday there will be another and we will want to be prepared to handle it better than we have this one. Incidentally boys have an outsized share of the risk of complications but still less than the risk of covid. The correct thing to do is take the minimum effort to protect yourself and others and stop complaining.

ikr678 5y ago
Some of the costs of your choice to forgo vaccination are pushed onto the community, and so the community is entitled to set rules to minimise those costs. We accept this sort of risk management in many other domains, where your individual choices impose may introduce external damages(Pet bonds for renters?) but Americans don't seem to think it fair in this situation for some reason.
- throwawayfear 5y ago
  This is a false dilemma. It is a dishonest position to take. I can only hope you're doing it with well intentions. But the reality of the matter is that 100 million Americans had covid by now, which means they have antibodies that are superior to those derived from vaccination. See the sources above. The "community" is not entitled to set rules to "minimize those costs." That's some Orwellian dictatorial nonsense. It would justify all kinds of evil. And it has justified all kinds of evil throughout history when sides were drawn this way and one side dehumanized the other. We don't think this way in America because we remember history, our own and the rest of the world's. We have experience. And there are those of us who are still old enough to remember. Edit for sources higher up the conv tree: https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-on... The natural immune protection that develops after a SARS-CoV-2 infection offers considerably more of a shield against the Delta variant of the pandemic coronavirus than two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, according to a large Israeli study that some scientists wish came with a “Don’t try this at home” label. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-covid-prevents-delta-infection-better-than-pfizer-shot https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-...

kelnos 5y ago

It's really hard to take you seriously when you are trying to equate a vaccine passport with locking everyone in monitored, isolated, government-run housing pods. > There's no need for a "sacrifice of individual liberty for safety." We sacrifice individual liberty for safety every day. People who aren't licensed to drive don't get behind the wheel, and if they do and get caught, the punishments are stiff. > Implementing these passports will cause something even worse than some covid spread to happen. A two-tiered society where one segment of society is viewed as unhealthy, unclean, even dangerous. If you are choosing not to get vaccinated[0], then you are dangerous. You are literally a hazard to public health. You are easy incubation grounds for new virus variants that can evade the protection of the vaccines we have now. You are selfishly pushing the consequences of a possible infection on your family and friends, and on the doctors and nurses who may have to treat you. All because you've decided to politicize a vaccine. A vaccine, for crying out loud! It's absurd. > Time for YOU, reader, to say no and realize that these passports are just about control. They don't care about your health. It's about power. Think critically about the system being built. It's about the control. I mean, sure, there are a lot of things in this world that are more about control than their stated purpose. Public school curricula, airport security, organized religion. The list goes on. And sure, I bet some people get their rocks off telling people they can or can't go to their favorite bar or restaurant because of their health care choices. But the bottom line is that we're not getting out of this pandemic without mass vaccination or natural immunity. And the time it'll take us to get to natural immunity will involve years of orders of magnitude more deaths, the constant overloading of our heath care system, and doctors and nurses quitting en masse as they cease to be able to deal with it all anymore. Even if we accept for a moment that no one in power cares about public health, I think it's safe to accept that they do care about the economy, because that's how they continue to line their pockets. The economy doesn't look so good in places where people don't care about trying to beat back the pandemic. [0] Even though this isn't a thing, I absolutely support the idea of a "post-infection immunity card". We should define what level of antibodies conveys enough immunity, and give people antibody tests and issue them cards if their antibody counts qualify. Those cards should be accepted wherever proof of vaccination is accepted.

throwawayfear 5y ago