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> Half the country is just stuck, focused on short-term and no attention paid to anything else and it's freakin disastrous. Which half?

syshum 5y ago
The 1/2 at the extremes ends of the Horseshoe of Politics... The Covid Deniers, and the Authoritarian "new normal" types that believe government is our parent. People that believe when it comes to COVID I should have no personal choice, I have to either be forced to vaxx, or the vaxx should be banned, I should be forced to mask, or the mask should be banned... People that reject liberty in the face of emergency
- wavefunction 5y ago
  The problem is that we tried to allow people to be "personally responsible" and we ended up with a worse wave of the pandemic than the original one. People were not responsible, and they were definitely not "personally responsible" seeing how they've tied up our medical system, burnt out medical workers and kept people with normal medical emergencies or conditions from getting the care they require. Liberty is freedom+responsibility. All I hear about is freedom without responsibility though.
  - syshum 5y ago
    So your rebuttable is "we gave you a choice, and you choose wrong" That is not really a choice. Does the mugger give me a "choice" when he holds a gun to my head and threatens me with violence if do not do as he desire.
    - a_conservative 5y ago
      It depends on who you ask! If you ask the mugger, he will likely say that you did have a choice.
- ikrenji 5y ago
  the pandemic is not a philosophical problem, it has nothing to do with liberty or freedom. it is purely a scientific problem with a scientific solution - the fucking vaccine
  - jpadkins 5y ago
    just curious: Why are you so confident that the vaccine is the solution? There are countries or populations with very high rate of vaccination that still see community spread (Israel, that UK ship, etc). Are you mentally prepared for the possibility that this is not true? What evidence would convince you that the vaccine won't 'solve' the pandemic?
    - VintageCool 5y ago
      Israel only has a 61% fully vaccinated rate. It is having to deal with widespread vaccine skepticism just like the US. Since the Delta variant is so much more infectious than the original covid, you'd have to get to 90% vaccination rates to count as "herd immunity" against this disease.
      - sreque 5y ago
        Your numbers are misleading and deceptive. 78% of the eligible population and 90% of the most vulnerable have been vaccinated in Israel. Children under 12, who are ineligible for the vaccine, are at insanely low risk from covid and at insanely low risk of spreading it. Pretending they have to be vaccinated to achieve "herd immunity" is a lie and is fear mongering. Data show that unvaccinated children are safer than vaccinated adults. COVID will become endemic. Everyone knows this. All that's left is for politicians to vilify political opponents for potential votes and try to consolidate more power in the meantime.
        monetus 5y ago
        It will be endemic longer the more people (i.e. you) imply that there is nothing to be done. Edit: I don't mean to say that is what you meant, I just mean to say that the spread can be contained and the virus can be pushed out of whole regions before new variants arrive. It appears like you are saying that is impossible or not worth trying to attain.
rednerrus 5y ago
Where the horseshoe touches.
slg 5y ago
Some vaccination rates[1]: Democrats: 88% Republicans: 55% Republicans who support party more than Trump: 62% Republicans who support Trump more than party: 46% Biden voters in 2020 general election: 91% Trump voters in 2020 general election: 50% Let's not "both sides" this issue. It should be obvious who is to blame for the US's less than stellar vaccination rates and it isn't well-intentioned but manipulative messaging coming from health officials. [1] - https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/meet-the-press/nbc-news-poll-shows-demographic-breakdown-vaccinated-u-s-n1277514 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/meet-the-press/nbc-news-pol...
- gorwell 5y ago
  I don't think we should go down that road. https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccination-demographics-trends https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccination-demogr...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - slg 5y ago
    Can you explain what you think your link is showing? I honestly can't tell. First off there is this disclaimer: >These demographic data represent the geographic areas that contributed data and might differ by populations prioritized within each jurisdiction’s vaccination phase. Therefore, these data may not be generalizable to the entire US population. That page also shows the overall percentage of the population with at least one shot is 75.7% and yet no demographic group reaches that number except those over 50 years old. It seems clear that the CDC data is incomplete enough to not be fully trusted, but even if we do trust it, it doesn't do anything to disprove that the highest contributor to a person's vaccination status (besides potentially age) is their personal politics.
    - dnissley 5y ago
      The page explains this with a small note: "Race/Ethnicity data were available for 64% receiving at least one dose and 69.1% of people fully vaccinated". So increasing the numbers by about 50% to account for that makes it look more reasonable. Regardless, if we're nitpicking data quality surely a random nbc news poll doesn't exactly pass muster either.

syshum 5y ago

The 1/2 at the extremes ends of the Horseshoe of Politics... The Covid Deniers, and the Authoritarian "new normal" types that believe government is our parent. People that believe when it comes to COVID I should have no personal choice, I have to either be forced to vaxx, or the vaxx should be banned, I should be forced to mask, or the mask should be banned... People that reject liberty in the face of emergency

wavefunction 5y ago
The problem is that we tried to allow people to be "personally responsible" and we ended up with a worse wave of the pandemic than the original one. People were not responsible, and they were definitely not "personally responsible" seeing how they've tied up our medical system, burnt out medical workers and kept people with normal medical emergencies or conditions from getting the care they require. Liberty is freedom+responsibility. All I hear about is freedom without responsibility though.
- syshum 5y ago
  So your rebuttable is "we gave you a choice, and you choose wrong" That is not really a choice. Does the mugger give me a "choice" when he holds a gun to my head and threatens me with violence if do not do as he desire.
  - a_conservative 5y ago
    It depends on who you ask! If you ask the mugger, he will likely say that you did have a choice.
ikrenji 5y ago
the pandemic is not a philosophical problem, it has nothing to do with liberty or freedom. it is purely a scientific problem with a scientific solution - the fucking vaccine
- jpadkins 5y ago
  just curious: Why are you so confident that the vaccine is the solution? There are countries or populations with very high rate of vaccination that still see community spread (Israel, that UK ship, etc). Are you mentally prepared for the possibility that this is not true? What evidence would convince you that the vaccine won't 'solve' the pandemic?
  - VintageCool 5y ago
    Israel only has a 61% fully vaccinated rate. It is having to deal with widespread vaccine skepticism just like the US. Since the Delta variant is so much more infectious than the original covid, you'd have to get to 90% vaccination rates to count as "herd immunity" against this disease.
    - sreque 5y ago
      Your numbers are misleading and deceptive. 78% of the eligible population and 90% of the most vulnerable have been vaccinated in Israel. Children under 12, who are ineligible for the vaccine, are at insanely low risk from covid and at insanely low risk of spreading it. Pretending they have to be vaccinated to achieve "herd immunity" is a lie and is fear mongering. Data show that unvaccinated children are safer than vaccinated adults. COVID will become endemic. Everyone knows this. All that's left is for politicians to vilify political opponents for potential votes and try to consolidate more power in the meantime.
      - monetus 5y ago
        It will be endemic longer the more people (i.e. you) imply that there is nothing to be done. Edit: I don't mean to say that is what you meant, I just mean to say that the spread can be contained and the virus can be pushed out of whole regions before new variants arrive. It appears like you are saying that is impossible or not worth trying to attain.

rednerrus 5y ago

Where the horseshoe touches.

slg 5y ago

Some vaccination rates[1]: Democrats: 88% Republicans: 55% Republicans who support party more than Trump: 62% Republicans who support Trump more than party: 46% Biden voters in 2020 general election: 91% Trump voters in 2020 general election: 50% Let's not "both sides" this issue. It should be obvious who is to blame for the US's less than stellar vaccination rates and it isn't well-intentioned but manipulative messaging coming from health officials. [1] - https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/meet-the-press/nbc-news-poll-shows-demographic-breakdown-vaccinated-u-s-n1277514 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/meet-the-press/nbc-news-pol...

gorwell 5y ago
I don't think we should go down that road. https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccination-demographics-trends https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccination-demogr...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- slg 5y ago
  Can you explain what you think your link is showing? I honestly can't tell. First off there is this disclaimer: >These demographic data represent the geographic areas that contributed data and might differ by populations prioritized within each jurisdiction’s vaccination phase. Therefore, these data may not be generalizable to the entire US population. That page also shows the overall percentage of the population with at least one shot is 75.7% and yet no demographic group reaches that number except those over 50 years old. It seems clear that the CDC data is incomplete enough to not be fully trusted, but even if we do trust it, it doesn't do anything to disprove that the highest contributor to a person's vaccination status (besides potentially age) is their personal politics.
  - dnissley 5y ago
    The page explains this with a small note: "Race/Ethnicity data were available for 64% receiving at least one dose and 69.1% of people fully vaccinated". So increasing the numbers by about 50% to account for that makes it look more reasonable. Regardless, if we're nitpicking data quality surely a random nbc news poll doesn't exactly pass muster either.