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It's only a personal choice if you do not come in contact with anyone else as best as you can. Else, you run the risk of being infected, not knowing it, passin

It's only a personal choice if you do not come in contact with anyone else as best as you can. Else, you run the risk of being infected, not knowing it, passing it onto other people who "have made a personal choice", involuntary manslaughtering them (unless you're religious, then you've biblically murdered them); or, alternatively, you run the risk of ending up in the ICU, and now somebody who did get the vaccine now needs that ICU bed, and they die because you're wasting a perfectly good ICU slot because you "made a personal choice." Your rights end where the rights of others begin, this is the fundamental rule of modern western society above all others. Be very careful when you think that doesn't apply to you, not all mistakes can be corrected.

lp0_on_fire 5y ago
> involuntary manslaughtering them Oh please. The hyperbole is getting real old.
- lame-robot-hoax 5y ago
  Is it though? If it’s a personal choice, why is drunk driving banned, and why do we have seatbelt and helmet laws? If you know that you feel sick, and haven’t been vaccinated, yet go to work at a nursing home and end up spreading a breakthrough infection that kills an immunocompromised resident, is that not manslaughter? How is it different from knowingly getting in a car when intoxicated, and then causing a deadly accident?
  - lghh 5y ago
    > If you know that you feel sick Considering you can be contagious before you feel sick, I think the point is even more valid.
  - lp0_on_fire 5y ago
    Comparing something completely in your control to a virus that you can still get even with the vaccine is inappropriate a best, disingenuous at worst.
    - DFHippie 5y ago
      You can crash your car even while sober. And you can arrive home safely even while drunk. You don't have "complete control" over whether you crash. But the responsible thing to do is exercise what control you do have. Yes you could catch and spread the virus even after vaccinated but it is still irresponsible to disregard this and risk the lives and livelihoods of others. It is a trivial request and the consequences of spreading the virus are non-trivial.
    - subroutine 5y ago
      Drinking and driving is banned because it increases the probability of causing harm yourself and others.
      - MatthewMob 5y ago
        Neglecting to get the vaccine is discouraged because it increases the probability of causing harm to yourself and others.
        subroutine 5y ago
        Exactly the connection I was helping OP to make. Indeed the parallels are obvious when phrased like this.
- OneEyedRobot 5y ago
  >and why do we have seatbelt and helmet laws? I don't have the slightest idea. It would be like making sugar or alcohol illegal as it merely involves the person wearing the seatbelt or helmet.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
OneEyedRobot 5y ago
I went down the rabbit hole of looking at COVID cases in Scotland, where vaccinations are quite common. It's worth considering all of the numbers here. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-53511877 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-53511877
silent_cal 5y ago
The vaccine doesn't keep you from catching and spreading the virus.
- BHSPitMonkey 5y ago
  It can reduce or minimize the number of cases you spread while infected (i.e. you won't be infected for as long on average), though, and the positive impacts of this at scale are large. (Consider that case numbers grow exponentially, so even preventing e.g. 20% of transmissions in one month will have outsized effects weeks or months later.)
  - silent_cal 5y ago
    Prove you're not just guessing.
MarkLowenstein 5y ago
Since vaccinated are spreading this around nearly as much as unvaccinated, the involuntary manslaughter argument is moot. Getting your own vaccine doesn't help other people not die...only you. Even high-vaccination regions are having waves of infection that dwarf previous ones. (Israel, Scotland, Hawaii) That said, allowing civil suits to punish people that gave you a virus that killed you, would be effective to keep both vaxed and unvaxxed careful and staying at home while sick. Hard to prove where you got it, but just a few successful suits will keep people honest.
- mike00632 5y ago
  Do you have a source for your claim that the vaccine doesn't help stop the spread of the virus?
  - nradov 5y ago
    I encourage everyone to get vaccinated if they can, but vaccination doesn't stop the spread of the virus. It probably slows the spread, which is good, but the magnitude is unclear. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1
  - MarkLowenstein 5y ago
    I apologize for the delay. It took me awhile to locate my original source: page 18 of https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1016465/Vaccine_surveillance_report_-_week_36.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... Mea culpa, though: the chart I remember was of cases not spread/fan-out. I guess it is pretty hard to judge who is spreading it and who is not, in the public. Most articles tend to measure viral shedding or load as an indicator, which does support my stance, but that's science journalism which has been wrong a lot lately. I won't ask any HN reader to make a conclusion based on what I claimed.

lp0_on_fire 5y ago

> involuntary manslaughtering them Oh please. The hyperbole is getting real old.

lame-robot-hoax 5y ago
Is it though? If it’s a personal choice, why is drunk driving banned, and why do we have seatbelt and helmet laws? If you know that you feel sick, and haven’t been vaccinated, yet go to work at a nursing home and end up spreading a breakthrough infection that kills an immunocompromised resident, is that not manslaughter? How is it different from knowingly getting in a car when intoxicated, and then causing a deadly accident?
- lghh 5y ago
  > If you know that you feel sick Considering you can be contagious before you feel sick, I think the point is even more valid.
- lp0_on_fire 5y ago
  Comparing something completely in your control to a virus that you can still get even with the vaccine is inappropriate a best, disingenuous at worst.
  - DFHippie 5y ago
    You can crash your car even while sober. And you can arrive home safely even while drunk. You don't have "complete control" over whether you crash. But the responsible thing to do is exercise what control you do have. Yes you could catch and spread the virus even after vaccinated but it is still irresponsible to disregard this and risk the lives and livelihoods of others. It is a trivial request and the consequences of spreading the virus are non-trivial.
  - subroutine 5y ago
    Drinking and driving is banned because it increases the probability of causing harm yourself and others.
    - MatthewMob 5y ago
      Neglecting to get the vaccine is discouraged because it increases the probability of causing harm to yourself and others.
      - subroutine 5y ago
        Exactly the connection I was helping OP to make. Indeed the parallels are obvious when phrased like this.
OneEyedRobot 5y ago
>and why do we have seatbelt and helmet laws? I don't have the slightest idea. It would be like making sugar or alcohol illegal as it merely involves the person wearing the seatbelt or helmet.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

OneEyedRobot 5y ago

I went down the rabbit hole of looking at COVID cases in Scotland, where vaccinations are quite common. It's worth considering all of the numbers here. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-53511877 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-53511877

silent_cal 5y ago

The vaccine doesn't keep you from catching and spreading the virus.

BHSPitMonkey 5y ago
It can reduce or minimize the number of cases you spread while infected (i.e. you won't be infected for as long on average), though, and the positive impacts of this at scale are large. (Consider that case numbers grow exponentially, so even preventing e.g. 20% of transmissions in one month will have outsized effects weeks or months later.)
- silent_cal 5y ago
  Prove you're not just guessing.

MarkLowenstein 5y ago

Since vaccinated are spreading this around nearly as much as unvaccinated, the involuntary manslaughter argument is moot. Getting your own vaccine doesn't help other people not die...only you. Even high-vaccination regions are having waves of infection that dwarf previous ones. (Israel, Scotland, Hawaii) That said, allowing civil suits to punish people that gave you a virus that killed you, would be effective to keep both vaxed and unvaxxed careful and staying at home while sick. Hard to prove where you got it, but just a few successful suits will keep people honest.

mike00632 5y ago
Do you have a source for your claim that the vaccine doesn't help stop the spread of the virus?
- nradov 5y ago
  I encourage everyone to get vaccinated if they can, but vaccination doesn't stop the spread of the virus. It probably slows the spread, which is good, but the magnitude is unclear. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1
- MarkLowenstein 5y ago
  I apologize for the delay. It took me awhile to locate my original source: page 18 of https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1016465/Vaccine_surveillance_report_-_week_36.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... Mea culpa, though: the chart I remember was of cases not spread/fan-out. I guess it is pretty hard to judge who is spreading it and who is not, in the public. Most articles tend to measure viral shedding or load as an indicator, which does support my stance, but that's science journalism which has been wrong a lot lately. I won't ask any HN reader to make a conclusion based on what I claimed.