6 ms·

13 times actually https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v... I think this w

13 times actually https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v... I think this will be more relevant to vaccinating kids: If this result holds for kids as well, and considering that Covid is not dangerous for kids, maybe kids are better off getting covid

stefan_ 5y ago
No, of course they are not, hence why we are vaccinating them. This is fud. (Is this the dumbest argument yet? "If you just get COVID, you will have the best protection against COVID!"? I take it the dead people have the best protection to offer yet?)
- cblconfederate 5y ago
  The UK vaccine advisory board is not recommending vaccinating teens 12-15, on account that they dont benefit much
  - lame-robot-hoax 5y ago
    Incorrect. They recommend it, they don’t mandate it.
    - cblconfederate 5y ago
      They don't recommend it. The UK will vaccinate kids however. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/jcvi-issues-updated-advice-on-covid-19-vaccination-of-children-aged-12-to-15 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/jcvi-issues-updated-advic...
      - lame-robot-hoax 5y ago
        Nowhere does it say they don’t recommend it. Just that they aren’t going to universally mandate it. “For otherwise healthy 12 to 15 year old children, their risk of severe COVID-19 disease is small and therefore the potential for benefit from COVID-19 vaccination is also small. The JCVI’s view is that overall, the health benefits from COVID-19 vaccination to healthy children aged 12 to 15 years are marginally greater than the potential harms. Taking a precautionary approach, this margin of benefit is considered too small to support universal COVID-19 vaccination for this age group at this time. The committee will continue to review safety data as they emerge.” https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58547659 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58547659
        cblconfederate 5y ago
        Look, i don't care about back-and forth arguments, it 's better that i had listed the relevant evidence, and people can make up their minds on case-by-case, because it is possible that blind recommendations for vaccinations may end up being harmful. The phrase "universal vaccination" doesnt mean mandatory, it means that the benefit is so small that they don't recommend it to everyone, but only to kids in higher risk. The evidence seems to agree with them, despite governments' push for more vaccinations for their own reasons, which might be ineffective in the end. (There are countries that are pushing hard to vaccinate schoolchildren)
- angelzen 5y ago
  The silver lining of the covid pandemic is that kids have at a minuscule risk of covid complications. Smaller than flu, both hospitalizations and fatalities.
- dang 5y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. Instead, please make your substantive points thoughtfully. If someone else is wrong, for example, one good option is to patiently provide correct information. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful. Note this one: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."
gitonup 5y ago
I've seen this cited several times in this thread, but I've seen no one mention that (according their own FAQ): > medRxiv (pronounced "med-archive") is a free online archive and distribution server for complete but unpublished manuscripts (preprints) in the medical, clinical, and related health sciences. Preprints are preliminary reports of work that have not been certified by peer review. They should not be relied on to guide clinical practice or health-related behavior and should not be reported in news media as established information. The context is important, even if it turns out to be true.
- cblconfederate 5y ago
  Indeed the final version has not been published yet, but there are no major reasons to doubt its validity. Here's an evaluation of the preprint from Johns Hopkins: https://ncrc.jhsph.edu/research/comparing-sars-cov-2-natural-immunity-to-vaccine-induced-immunity-reinfections-versus-breakthrough-infections/ https://ncrc.jhsph.edu/research/comparing-sars-cov-2-natural...
angelzen 5y ago
For teens, UK [edit:] Chief Medical Officer recommends but not mandates first dose, and does not recommend second dose at least until spring. The benefits are marginal. 2 ICU prevented admissions / million first doses 87 hospital prevented admissions / million first doses 0.16 ICU prevented admissions / million second doses 6 hospital prevented admissions / million second doses > Having the vaccine is not compulsory. > Prof Whitty said an "offer" of vaccination will be made to all children aged 12-15. > But he said young people and their parents needed to be supported and there should be no stigma attached to their choice. https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57888429 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57888429
- makomk 5y ago
  On the other hand, the UK vaccination advisory board does not recommend vaccinating under-16s because they consider there to be inadequate evidence the risks outweigh the benefits. (Despite considerable and very public political pressure to come to a different conclusion, and if I remember correctly even some of the members who were most sceptical about it resigning and being replaced.)
  - angelzen 5y ago
    Quoting from the recent BBC article: "The UK's chief medical officers recommended a single Pfizer dose for all children aged 12 to 15." Perhaps there is a difference of position between 'advisory board' and 'chief medical officer', I am not that familiar with the UK scene.
    - makomk 5y ago
      From the article: "They made their recommendation after the JCVI - the scientific body advising the government on vaccines - said it did not recommend vaccinating healthy children on health grounds alone." The JCVI are the body that normally makes these decisions and has for the pandemic so far, but they kept on repeatedly refusing to recommend vaccination for under-16s unless they had a pre-existing condition no matter how many times the government asked or how unsubtle their hints - so there was a kind of weird political fudge where the government found another body that'd approve of them, largely based on the potential to reduce disruption to kids' education. (However, that disruption was itself mostly a result of government policy decisions, and the main reason the UK actually seems to be vaccinating under-16s is because other countries have been doing it which makde it politically untenable not to do the same.)
ttul 5y ago
Absolutely not the case. Children should be vaccinated. The Israeli study was useful in establishing that infection results in immunity. That’s it. It does not establish that infection is lower risk than vaccination. Children are at low risk from COVIS
- ttul 5y ago
  Pushed reply too soon. Children are at low risk, but not no risk. To the extent that kids are running around with infections, they’re transmitting virus to others and providing a reservoir for mutation. That is not productive. Let’s get the kids vaccinated. It’s the cheapest way out of this thing.
  - angelzen 5y ago
    > providing a reservoir for mutation. That is FUD and you should be ashamed of yourself. I have listened to scared people trying to blame people that are not vaccinated for the fact that vaccines are not that effective at preventing infection and that mild breakthrough infections are common. Most of it done with rather troubling political undertones. Such is life in US 2021. I don't like it, but I'll not engage directly. Hopefully the FUD will pass. But obviously the largest percentage of unvaccinated people are children, which do not NEED the vaccine, at least according to the data we have so far. I will not tolerate scapegoating of kids. Please get a grip.
    - xxpor 5y ago
      >I have listened to scared people trying to blame people that are not vaccinated for the fact that vaccines are not that effective at preventing infection and that mild breakthrough infections are common. Completely ridiculous. https://kingcounty.gov/depts/health/covid-19/data/vaccination-outcomes.aspx https://kingcounty.gov/depts/health/covid-19/data/vaccinatio... They're not perfect, but arguing they're not that effective is just stupid.
      - angelzen 5y ago
MisterBastahrd 5y ago
Not dangerous for them except for all the ones who have died from it, you mean.
freeflight 5y ago
I don't understand this whole push to vaccinate kids. In the beginning all the panic was about the "most vulnerable" in the population, while the young ones apparently could deal with it fine enough. A year and a half later and we are rushing to vaccinate the youngest ones, even tho it doesn't prevent them from spreading and they have great chances to get trough the disease without the vaccine already. The ultimate goal here seems to be to just get everybody vaccinated, possibly even yearly.
- RandallBrown 5y ago
  In the beginning it was about the most vulnerable because those were the people dying and we didn't have enough vaccines. Now we have enough for everyone and it turns out kids are spreading it to each other. It's true the vaccine doesn't totally stop someone from spreading the vaccine, but it does help.

stefan_ 5y ago

No, of course they are not, hence why we are vaccinating them. This is fud. (Is this the dumbest argument yet? "If you just get COVID, you will have the best protection against COVID!"? I take it the dead people have the best protection to offer yet?)

cblconfederate 5y ago
The UK vaccine advisory board is not recommending vaccinating teens 12-15, on account that they dont benefit much
- lame-robot-hoax 5y ago
  Incorrect. They recommend it, they don’t mandate it.
  - cblconfederate 5y ago
    They don't recommend it. The UK will vaccinate kids however. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/jcvi-issues-updated-advice-on-covid-19-vaccination-of-children-aged-12-to-15 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/jcvi-issues-updated-advic...
    - lame-robot-hoax 5y ago
      Nowhere does it say they don’t recommend it. Just that they aren’t going to universally mandate it. “For otherwise healthy 12 to 15 year old children, their risk of severe COVID-19 disease is small and therefore the potential for benefit from COVID-19 vaccination is also small. The JCVI’s view is that overall, the health benefits from COVID-19 vaccination to healthy children aged 12 to 15 years are marginally greater than the potential harms. Taking a precautionary approach, this margin of benefit is considered too small to support universal COVID-19 vaccination for this age group at this time. The committee will continue to review safety data as they emerge.” https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58547659 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58547659
      - cblconfederate 5y ago
        Look, i don't care about back-and forth arguments, it 's better that i had listed the relevant evidence, and people can make up their minds on case-by-case, because it is possible that blind recommendations for vaccinations may end up being harmful. The phrase "universal vaccination" doesnt mean mandatory, it means that the benefit is so small that they don't recommend it to everyone, but only to kids in higher risk. The evidence seems to agree with them, despite governments' push for more vaccinations for their own reasons, which might be ineffective in the end. (There are countries that are pushing hard to vaccinate schoolchildren)
angelzen 5y ago
The silver lining of the covid pandemic is that kids have at a minuscule risk of covid complications. Smaller than flu, both hospitalizations and fatalities.
dang 5y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. Instead, please make your substantive points thoughtfully. If someone else is wrong, for example, one good option is to patiently provide correct information. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful. Note this one: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."

gitonup 5y ago

I've seen this cited several times in this thread, but I've seen no one mention that (according their own FAQ): > medRxiv (pronounced "med-archive") is a free online archive and distribution server for complete but unpublished manuscripts (preprints) in the medical, clinical, and related health sciences. Preprints are preliminary reports of work that have not been certified by peer review. They should not be relied on to guide clinical practice or health-related behavior and should not be reported in news media as established information. The context is important, even if it turns out to be true.

cblconfederate 5y ago
Indeed the final version has not been published yet, but there are no major reasons to doubt its validity. Here's an evaluation of the preprint from Johns Hopkins: https://ncrc.jhsph.edu/research/comparing-sars-cov-2-natural-immunity-to-vaccine-induced-immunity-reinfections-versus-breakthrough-infections/ https://ncrc.jhsph.edu/research/comparing-sars-cov-2-natural...

angelzen 5y ago

For teens, UK [edit:] Chief Medical Officer recommends but not mandates first dose, and does not recommend second dose at least until spring. The benefits are marginal. 2 ICU prevented admissions / million first doses 87 hospital prevented admissions / million first doses 0.16 ICU prevented admissions / million second doses 6 hospital prevented admissions / million second doses > Having the vaccine is not compulsory. > Prof Whitty said an "offer" of vaccination will be made to all children aged 12-15. > But he said young people and their parents needed to be supported and there should be no stigma attached to their choice. https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57888429 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57888429

makomk 5y ago
On the other hand, the UK vaccination advisory board does not recommend vaccinating under-16s because they consider there to be inadequate evidence the risks outweigh the benefits. (Despite considerable and very public political pressure to come to a different conclusion, and if I remember correctly even some of the members who were most sceptical about it resigning and being replaced.)
- angelzen 5y ago
  Quoting from the recent BBC article: "The UK's chief medical officers recommended a single Pfizer dose for all children aged 12 to 15." Perhaps there is a difference of position between 'advisory board' and 'chief medical officer', I am not that familiar with the UK scene.
  - makomk 5y ago
    From the article: "They made their recommendation after the JCVI - the scientific body advising the government on vaccines - said it did not recommend vaccinating healthy children on health grounds alone." The JCVI are the body that normally makes these decisions and has for the pandemic so far, but they kept on repeatedly refusing to recommend vaccination for under-16s unless they had a pre-existing condition no matter how many times the government asked or how unsubtle their hints - so there was a kind of weird political fudge where the government found another body that'd approve of them, largely based on the potential to reduce disruption to kids' education. (However, that disruption was itself mostly a result of government policy decisions, and the main reason the UK actually seems to be vaccinating under-16s is because other countries have been doing it which makde it politically untenable not to do the same.)

ttul 5y ago

Absolutely not the case. Children should be vaccinated. The Israeli study was useful in establishing that infection results in immunity. That’s it. It does not establish that infection is lower risk than vaccination. Children are at low risk from COVIS

ttul 5y ago
Pushed reply too soon. Children are at low risk, but not no risk. To the extent that kids are running around with infections, they’re transmitting virus to others and providing a reservoir for mutation. That is not productive. Let’s get the kids vaccinated. It’s the cheapest way out of this thing.
- angelzen 5y ago
  > providing a reservoir for mutation. That is FUD and you should be ashamed of yourself. I have listened to scared people trying to blame people that are not vaccinated for the fact that vaccines are not that effective at preventing infection and that mild breakthrough infections are common. Most of it done with rather troubling political undertones. Such is life in US 2021. I don't like it, but I'll not engage directly. Hopefully the FUD will pass. But obviously the largest percentage of unvaccinated people are children, which do not NEED the vaccine, at least according to the data we have so far. I will not tolerate scapegoating of kids. Please get a grip.
  - xxpor 5y ago
    >I have listened to scared people trying to blame people that are not vaccinated for the fact that vaccines are not that effective at preventing infection and that mild breakthrough infections are common. Completely ridiculous. https://kingcounty.gov/depts/health/covid-19/data/vaccination-outcomes.aspx https://kingcounty.gov/depts/health/covid-19/data/vaccinatio... They're not perfect, but arguing they're not that effective is just stupid.
    - angelzen 5y ago

MisterBastahrd 5y ago

Not dangerous for them except for all the ones who have died from it, you mean.

freeflight 5y ago

I don't understand this whole push to vaccinate kids. In the beginning all the panic was about the "most vulnerable" in the population, while the young ones apparently could deal with it fine enough. A year and a half later and we are rushing to vaccinate the youngest ones, even tho it doesn't prevent them from spreading and they have great chances to get trough the disease without the vaccine already. The ultimate goal here seems to be to just get everybody vaccinated, possibly even yearly.

RandallBrown 5y ago
In the beginning it was about the most vulnerable because those were the people dying and we didn't have enough vaccines. Now we have enough for everyone and it turns out kids are spreading it to each other. It's true the vaccine doesn't totally stop someone from spreading the vaccine, but it does help.