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Tesla Wanted $22,500 to Replace a Battery. An Independent Shop Fixed It for $5k

121 points by elsewhen 5y ago

vkou 5y ago
> “You have literally teenagers doing break and oil changes on $100,000 cars and the customer hops in these cars and drives 85 miles an hour on the highway. We’re trusting these repairs to people that don’t have a ton of experience.” Considering that a break (sic) and oil change is a simple DIY task, it's no surprise that we trust teenagers with no experience to do it. I trust myself to do it, and I'm not a gearhead. > But Tesla has done a great job of marketing the Teslas as a complicated piece of machinery that needs certified technicians to do repairs. Many basic repairs are impossible to do on its cars because of software locks. “Tesla, first and foremost, is a software company,” Benoit said. How does this square with the oft-touted claim that other automakers are dragging their feet on getting rid of ICEs, because fixing them is a huge profit center for them? Are electric vehicles actually easier to maintain and fix, or not? And if they are, why does Tesla charge so much for these repairs? As an end-user, I don't really care about whether or not a car-in-the-shop fix is a ten-hour job, or a five-minute one. What I care about is how much it costs me.
- draugadrotten 5y ago
  > why does Tesla charge so much for these repairs? Because...they can? King Gilette immortalized the business model of selling low-margin razors and high margin blades. Tesla is trying the car equivalent?
  - vkou 5y ago
    > Because...they can? Why can Tesla do it, but Ford, Toyota, Honda can't? I'm sure the latter would love to regularly charge twenty grand for a five-grand fix. What's the difference?
    - outworlder 5y ago
      They do charge for a bunch of small fixes. Maybe not 25k worth, but repairs are a good profit center for dealerships. Dealerships are not fond of electric vehicles because they don't need much in the way of repairs. The brands you mentioned also have a reputation for reliable cars that are cheap to repair. Maybe if the comparison is done against the likes of Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Ferrari and so on, it would paint a different picture.
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      Because Tesla has cultivated a reputation and consumer base where being high maintenance is ok and not particularly bad for the brand. Toyota could do it too. And for a decade their blindly rabid fanboys would probably still be screeching about how they're the most reliable, facts be damned. and it would probably work quite well. And then when consumers wise up to the fact that they're being sold something on a premise and getting something else it would all come crashing down because high maintenance cars are not consistent with their brand image.
    - anonAndOn 5y ago
      I can think of 6 different Toyota dealerships all within 40 miles of me. In addition, there are innumerable independent mechanics also competing for those service dollars. The invisible hand of the market responds accordingly.
- eyesee 5y ago
  I think the feet-dragging comes more from the dealer network than from automakers themselves. Ford, GM and the like will still make plenty of money from offering parts for their EVs. Dealers however continue to show distaste in EV sales. Part of that may be the reduced service needs (no oil changes, transmission rebuilds, engine maintenance, etc.) that will lower their income, part may be from the sales side. That's been Tesla's argument all along for selling and servicing direct, and I think anyone that's tried to buy an EV from a Chevy dealer might agree.
- DerpyBaby123 5y ago
  >a break and oil change is a simple DIY task Agree, the argument is that many tasks on Teslas should be simple DIY tasks but Tesla has engineered away access so that they are no longer simple DIY tasks. As you quoted FTA: "Many basic repairs are impossible to do on its cars because of software locks" See what some Tesla owners reported for bills for bills for brake replacements, which should be cheap and DIY-able, about $8500[1] [1] https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/ouch-first-huge-repair-bill.70396/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/ouch-first-huge-repa...
  - HarryHirsch 5y ago
    Sounds like typical Tesla engineering. Everyone knows that seized brakes are expensive, but constructing brakes in such a way that they will seize because of underuse is something that only Tesla would do. Buy a Nissan Leaf.
    - Ekaros 5y ago
      My Kia managed to do that. But hey it cost half of Tesla so I shouldn't expect Tesla quality. Actually using them hard sometimes is something that can be learned.
    - gonesilent 5y ago
      Tesla did not design its brakes those are from a third party.
      - HarryHirsch 5y ago
        Like the touchscreen that couldn't handle the temperatures in the passenger cabin when the vehicle was parked in the summer sun. Once again, Tesla's engineers chose a part that was wildly unsuitable for its use case.
      - vkou 5y ago
        All major auto manufacturers sub-contract parts of their cars to third parties. It doesn't matter who designed it, what matters is who slaps their logo on it, and ships it to the end user. I, as a customer, don't have a business relationship with that subcontractor. I do have a business relationship with the manufacturer. They own the profits, and they own the problems. If the subcontractors they choose produce crap, it is reflected in ratings of their products.
- weaksauce 5y ago
  I don't really want to take advice from a guy that can't tell the difference between break and brake when it comes down to a ticking time bomb of energy that can literally burn down your house when it charges poorly. IC cars can do this too but thankfully it's a lot more rare generally when they are just off.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
Before anyone types out a wall-o-text pearl clutching about how all mechanical systems are unknown black boxes and surely the indy shop couldn't have sufficiently fixed the issue without compromising safety you may want to look at the discussion from last time a similar thing happened. You can likely find something in there to copy+paste and save yourself some time. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27814621 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27814621
- zamadatix 5y ago
  I started out already on the side of "this is something a 3rd party shop could easily fix in a solid way" but after reading your link I'm actually less sure about that than when I started. The case in this thread doesn't seem like a "we screwed a replacement piece on to fix the coolant leak" level fix like that thread, it sounds like serious work to the battery pack. I don't think it's pearl clutching to have concerns on $5,000 worth of unspecified repairs to a battery unit knowing Tesla does not hand out the information on how to properly service the vehicle to that level. I think Tesla should support this kind of fix by 3rd party shops though but barring that at the moment I think it's a fair question to ask.
  - theshrike79 5y ago
    This is the age-old problem with PR. If a 3rd party shop botches a battery fix and the car burns down killing all the passengers the headlines won't be "3rd party botch-job kills family in EV" It will be "TESLA BATTERY FIRE KILLS FAMILY" and _maybe_ they'll mention the fact that the battery had 3rd party repairs in the middle of the article. This is why companies don't want random 3rd party shops fixing sensitive stuff. No matter how good they are.
  - Corrado 5y ago
    There was also a comment on the video that mentioned that the fix probably wouldn't last. The battery packs are a unit and they don't like it when pieces are older / newer than the rest of the unit. Tesla might know that while replacing a single cell would fix the immediate problem it would eventually cause the whole battery to shut down. Maybe this is similar to when you have something really bad happen to an ICE motor (ie. broken valve), but you drain and flush the engine oil, which "fixes" the problem. And then 6 months later the engine grenades requiring a full replacement.
JohnJamesRambo 5y ago
This is why I will probably sell my Tesla when it gets even close to the 50k bumper to bumper warranty. Used car prices for Teslas are awesome, I could sell it to Carvana for more than I paid for it I think right now. I'm already having a load of trouble this morning getting a flat fixed because it has a slow leak and the tires have the acoustic foam inside them that prevents using green slime. Tesla wants $81 to fix it- if I drive an hour and a half to a service center. I love the gas savings but I don't want to drive a John Deere that can't be worked on when things go wrong.
- philg_jr 5y ago
  I took option to have the Tesla mobile tire service come to my house. I had several screws in one of my tires, and one was too close to the sidewall to plug. The guy in the van showed up to my house and had the full tire removed/mounted/balanced in about 15-20 minutes. I had to pay for the tire and service fee (obviously) but it was incredibly fast and convenient for me. I found the whole process impressive.
  - misiti3780 5y ago
    I agree, i would just use their mobile service. they can fix everything minus software/sensor issues as far as i know.
  - FartyMcFarter 5y ago
    That must be ridiculously expensive compared to using a generic tire fixing shop?
    - vagrantJin 5y ago
      I would argue, fairly, that a person who drives a Tesla is not too wound up about ridiculous costs.
    - philg_jr 5y ago
      The tire needed to be replaced regardless, and no shop around me had the exact tire in stock, so I would have had to wait and I needed to be able to drive safely (without screws in my tire) for work travel requirements. Most shops won't give you a discount on a single tire anyway, and Tesla's price on the tire was cheaper than Discount Tire Direct on eBay. The fee to replace the tire was $20, which is in line with a normal tire shop (mounting and balancing 4 tires is usually $60-80 in my experience).
spywaregorilla 5y ago
> Tesla recently released its Toolbox, a set of diagnostic software that will tell a repair shop or Tesla owner what’s wrong with a car. Anyone can purchase access to the Toolbox but it costs $3,000 a year or $100 for 24 hours. But diagnostics are only half the issue. > Replacement Tesla parts have to be installed by a certified Tesla dealership. Which begs the question, how did Benoit and his team replace Hoover’s battery? “We have alternate means of getting into things,” he said. “We don’t necessarily need the Toolbox in a lot of cases, but it would make our lives 10 time easier…Tesla is locking down more and more access to cars. There’s a lot of things that you used to be able to do that you no longer can do. They’re definitely tightening restrictions.” Am I reading this right, that the problem is solved by a $100 charge for a tool that could easily be passed on to the consumer? They imply the toolbox isn't all that's needed but then say “We don’t necessarily need the Toolbox in a lot of cases, but it would make our lives 10 time easier" Sounds like they're loosening restrictions, not tightening them?
- nolok 5y ago
  No you did not read that right. IDENTIFYING the problem is done by the $100 charge for 24 hours. They did without. Solving the problem was costing tens of thousands of dollars from Tesla if using their "certified" network, while they did it for 5k.
  - 1123581321 5y ago
    Yes, but if independent shops can either do this for $5k or do it with a faster/easier diagnosis for $5.1k, that’s not a bad situation for either the shop or the car owner. It doesn’t sound terribly far off from the indie-vs-dealer choices I make as an ICE auto owner.
    - nolok 5y ago
      Sure but the quote was hand picked by parent, the core of the article and the meat of the (cost) complaint is not the toolbox access but the part replacement.
wavefunction 5y ago
I am somewhat happy to see this. I have been thinking recently about what will happen to all the small mechanic businesses that currently employ so many with the advent of "manufacturer limited" electric vehicles.
walrus01 5y ago
The more I see stuff like this, the more I'm convinced that life is measurably better, less costly, less stressful and less complicated by owning something like a $9000 used Toyota Corolla. Unless you have a truly ridiculously high salary/net worth and can afford to buy something like a model S plaid edition on a whim, for fun. At which point you're into the territory of people who do things like buy Nissan GT-R for fun and then pay aftermarket modification shops to make $65,000 of additional enhancements to them.
- jliptzin 5y ago
  Nobody is writing news articles about people who drive their Teslas without any issues. I’ve had my model 3 for over 2 years, not a single issue, no oil changes, no maintenance done on it whatsoever. 25k miles.
  - lijogdfljk 5y ago
    Man that is sort of mind blowing. I would have thought there was often basic maintenance for .. something. Shouldn't you have rotated your tires a few times at least?
    - rzzzt 5y ago
      If my calculations are correct, the tires have rotated approx. 5.45 million times.
      - throwanem 5y ago
        "Rotating" as in mounting them on different corners of the car so that they wear evenly, I believe is what's meant here.
    - zdragnar 5y ago
      25k miles in two years is... not a lot of driving, at all. Even new ICE engines wouldn't need anything other than their oil changed. A tire rotation would probably be a good idea, though.
vl 5y ago
It would be nice of them to tell us what the actual problem was and provide breakdown of $5000 and $22000.
- consumer451 5y ago
  The source is this video. I don’t have time to queue it up to pertinent moment, but here is the link: https://youtu.be/T7Q0nNkQTCo https://youtu.be/T7Q0nNkQTCo They discussed all details in the video.
eyesee 5y ago
My Model 3 hit some road debris a couple years ago. It damaged the coolant line connector heading into the battery. Tesla replaced the entire battery for ~$15k, which probably could have been a $700 repair like that mentioned in the video. That said, my insurance covered the cost without a problem and I had my car back in 4 days. I don't know if they took possession of the original battery or negotiated a different rate, but it sounds like Tesla makes bank on this kind of repair. $15k for a new battery pack, a quick turnaround from their service center, and someone gets the old pack which in all likelihood was perfectly fine. There aren't a lot of shops that know how to repair a battery pack (in most of the country anyway). With less than 2% of cars on the road being EVs that's not surprising, but as more are sold you'll see more come about. The insurance companies will be very motivated to reduce these kinds of claims, and with real competition Tesla will no longer be able to justify the practice.
- obenn 5y ago
  In Ontario it is regulation to be able to obtain any of your car parts that got replaced, I wonder if it’s possible to request the old battery…
  - brigade 5y ago
    The $15k is after a "core charge" of ~$10k (iirc) (aka at least in the US they can basically charge whatever they want extra if you demand your old parts)
    - mikestew 5y ago
      That's because the old parts are worth money. Check how much extra they want if you request your old tires after getting new ones. Hey, they took money off! Because folks might want your old batteries but they sure as hell don't want your old tires.
  - jsight 5y ago
    It generally is, but in this case the insurance paid for it. I'd think they would be the ones that could do that.
whydoyoucare 5y ago
Tesla has always made me nervous, especially its remote software update/access capability doesn't inspire confidence nor a full proof-of-ownership. What is saved in gas is lost in repairs! :-(
martythemaniak 5y ago
The shop replaced 2 of the 8 modules, Tesla offered 8 new modules. Why wouldn't 8 cost four times as much as 2? Also, folks on Twitter are posting their Model S battery replacement work for about half that price. https://twitter.com/Ellesmaera/status/1434996312324419584 https://twitter.com/Ellesmaera/status/1434996312324419584 The tweet and invoice is from September 2021. Electrek has a picture of the invoice in question and it's from 2019: https://electrek.co/2021/09/13/tesla-battery-pack-replacement-repair/ https://electrek.co/2021/09/13/tesla-battery-pack-replacemen...
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jdhn 5y ago
Is this because of a lack of competition from other legacy manufacturers, Tesla is being uniquely greedy, or a mix of both?
- gunapologist99 5y ago
  Neither. For technical and historical reasons, Tesla can, and customers do not seem to care... until they do. (Exactly as with Apple products, but Teslas cost an order of magnitude more, so it's possible that Tesla will burn up customer goodwill faster; on the other hand, John Deere farming machines, which can cost a magnitude further at hundreds of thousands of dollars, are still purchased by customers as well, even with the John Deere right-to-repair and computerization issues.) Are these unwise choices that customers are making? It's probably only unwise when something goes wrong. ;) But people have bought many other expensive-to-repair vehicles (and other delicate machinery, like watches) for hundreds of years, so Tesla isn't exactly unique in that respect.
sly010 5y ago
Tesla is not that different from any consumer device company: Priority #1 is shareholder value and they have nothing to gain by making repair easy. In fact, by making things easy/cheap to fix they are going to loose a ton of revenue. But by locking things down they can prevent both 3rd party parts AND 3rd party labor. The long term solution might be for Tesla to offer longer leases, renewable warranty or other kind of recurring deals. Something like that would create a situation where all parties benefit: - Tesla engineers can truly focus on reliability, repairability, sustainability - Shareholders are happy about a reliable recurring revenue - Customers get cheaper/faster fixes and have no reason to fix things themselves Too idealistic?
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conductr 5y ago
Are conventional ICE repair shops making it up on volume? For example, if you have 10 cars a day coming in for major repairs your prices look different than if its only 1 car a week. They have less volume to spread the fixed cost around, etc, etc. I'm sure there is plenty of gouging going on, just wondering if this is a missing piece to explain some of the disparity.
- rasz 5y ago
  Dealers have repair hour lists. For example BMW N47 engine chain guides replacement (not the whole timing service, just a broken guide = slapping/rattling noise) is still an engine out/dropped gearbox job (timing chains are at the back of the engine) and might be charged as over 10 labour hours at >$100/hour + liquids + parts + diagnosis = usually $2-4K in US. Doesnt mean thats how long it takes, good mechanic can do it in under 2h.
  - conductr 5y ago
    So just as egregious as the OP tesla battery since 2h/10h vs $5k/$25k ?
    - rasz 5y ago
      I wouldnt call this egregious, its the cost of owning a stupid BMW(/1). It would take you those 10h or longer to DIY. Efficient mechanic will put car on the lift, drop engine on hydraulic lift engine table and be done in 2h moving to the next job. /1 stupid because it was engineered for numbers and not real life use. Service intervals set by marketing - 15K miles engine oil changes, ZF transmission "lifetime fluid" LOL, all to appease fleet buyers with 3 year leases.
cassepipe 5y ago
Drunk post : I live in Europe where cities are more pedestrian/public transporation friendly so I am biased but still, Ok, I couldn't afford a Tesla unless I ask the bank for money that I will have to reimburse over at least ten years (oh wait the bank won't give me that sum anyways) so my thinking is : You bought an 100,000$ car so you can spend that sum on a car so you probably can spend 20,000$ on a repair years later. I get it it's overpriced but what you're paying for is not having to care on how/when it is fixed, you just call the number. Same reasoning if you have Apple hardware. If you're in the situation where you spend that sum on a car but you can't afford those repair prices you might have made a litle "caprice" just as my roommate who wanted a car and now is spending a thousand euros on his shitty second hand car each year (parking, insurance, repairs) which he can't afford. He should have stuck with freeriding public transportation imho. My point being : Yeah Luxury is overpriced but that's the point. If you can't afford having status symbols, don't.
AtlasBarfed 5y ago
Question about these battery replacements: Is Tesla crediting the user with the value of the battery being replaced? That battery has a boatload of perfectly functioning cells that I believe Tesla already uses for powerwalls and grid storage. It's directly in the swim lane of the entire battery recycling/full use lifecycle conversation. There's going to soon be a very healthy aftermarket in people adapting tesla batteries for bespoke projects and electrifying classic car chassis. People are scooping up salvage Teslas right and left for this stuff. I'm wondering how shady the service is being. "We have to replace the battery for 22k", OK do I get to keep the original battery component?
kodah 5y ago
I think there's a non-negligible amount of people who thought or convinced themselves they bought something other than a luxury car. Once you see things through the luxury car perspective all the odd things Tesla does make sense, like overpriced repairs and software locking.
ram_rar 5y ago
what you save in gas, will lose in repairs!! I have driven all sorts of sports cars, trucks, rvs etc. Nothing so far has beat 10k corolla. At the end of the day, traffic/road condition, AC and a decent music system gets me to inflection point. After that, it barely moves the needle for me.
RickJWagner 5y ago
I've really been wanting a nice electric car, but this scenario bothers me. You are holding the car when it goes out of warranty and you face a huge battery bill. What to do? If the battery costs as much as the car is worth? With the recent lifespan of ICE cars, they just seem better after 10+ years for this reason.

121 points by elsewhen 5y ago

vkou 5y ago

> “You have literally teenagers doing break and oil changes on $100,000 cars and the customer hops in these cars and drives 85 miles an hour on the highway. We’re trusting these repairs to people that don’t have a ton of experience.” Considering that a break (sic) and oil change is a simple DIY task, it's no surprise that we trust teenagers with no experience to do it. I trust myself to do it, and I'm not a gearhead. > But Tesla has done a great job of marketing the Teslas as a complicated piece of machinery that needs certified technicians to do repairs. Many basic repairs are impossible to do on its cars because of software locks. “Tesla, first and foremost, is a software company,” Benoit said. How does this square with the oft-touted claim that other automakers are dragging their feet on getting rid of ICEs, because fixing them is a huge profit center for them? Are electric vehicles actually easier to maintain and fix, or not? And if they are, why does Tesla charge so much for these repairs? As an end-user, I don't really care about whether or not a car-in-the-shop fix is a ten-hour job, or a five-minute one. What I care about is how much it costs me.

draugadrotten 5y ago
> why does Tesla charge so much for these repairs? Because...they can? King Gilette immortalized the business model of selling low-margin razors and high margin blades. Tesla is trying the car equivalent?
- vkou 5y ago
  > Because...they can? Why can Tesla do it, but Ford, Toyota, Honda can't? I'm sure the latter would love to regularly charge twenty grand for a five-grand fix. What's the difference?
  - outworlder 5y ago
    They do charge for a bunch of small fixes. Maybe not 25k worth, but repairs are a good profit center for dealerships. Dealerships are not fond of electric vehicles because they don't need much in the way of repairs. The brands you mentioned also have a reputation for reliable cars that are cheap to repair. Maybe if the comparison is done against the likes of Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Ferrari and so on, it would paint a different picture.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    Because Tesla has cultivated a reputation and consumer base where being high maintenance is ok and not particularly bad for the brand. Toyota could do it too. And for a decade their blindly rabid fanboys would probably still be screeching about how they're the most reliable, facts be damned. and it would probably work quite well. And then when consumers wise up to the fact that they're being sold something on a premise and getting something else it would all come crashing down because high maintenance cars are not consistent with their brand image.
  - anonAndOn 5y ago
    I can think of 6 different Toyota dealerships all within 40 miles of me. In addition, there are innumerable independent mechanics also competing for those service dollars. The invisible hand of the market responds accordingly.
eyesee 5y ago
I think the feet-dragging comes more from the dealer network than from automakers themselves. Ford, GM and the like will still make plenty of money from offering parts for their EVs. Dealers however continue to show distaste in EV sales. Part of that may be the reduced service needs (no oil changes, transmission rebuilds, engine maintenance, etc.) that will lower their income, part may be from the sales side. That's been Tesla's argument all along for selling and servicing direct, and I think anyone that's tried to buy an EV from a Chevy dealer might agree.
DerpyBaby123 5y ago
>a break and oil change is a simple DIY task Agree, the argument is that many tasks on Teslas should be simple DIY tasks but Tesla has engineered away access so that they are no longer simple DIY tasks. As you quoted FTA: "Many basic repairs are impossible to do on its cars because of software locks" See what some Tesla owners reported for bills for bills for brake replacements, which should be cheap and DIY-able, about $8500[1] [1] https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/ouch-first-huge-repair-bill.70396/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/ouch-first-huge-repa...
- HarryHirsch 5y ago
  Sounds like typical Tesla engineering. Everyone knows that seized brakes are expensive, but constructing brakes in such a way that they will seize because of underuse is something that only Tesla would do. Buy a Nissan Leaf.
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    My Kia managed to do that. But hey it cost half of Tesla so I shouldn't expect Tesla quality. Actually using them hard sometimes is something that can be learned.
  - gonesilent 5y ago
    Tesla did not design its brakes those are from a third party.
    - HarryHirsch 5y ago
      Like the touchscreen that couldn't handle the temperatures in the passenger cabin when the vehicle was parked in the summer sun. Once again, Tesla's engineers chose a part that was wildly unsuitable for its use case.
    - vkou 5y ago
      All major auto manufacturers sub-contract parts of their cars to third parties. It doesn't matter who designed it, what matters is who slaps their logo on it, and ships it to the end user. I, as a customer, don't have a business relationship with that subcontractor. I do have a business relationship with the manufacturer. They own the profits, and they own the problems. If the subcontractors they choose produce crap, it is reflected in ratings of their products.
weaksauce 5y ago
I don't really want to take advice from a guy that can't tell the difference between break and brake when it comes down to a ticking time bomb of energy that can literally burn down your house when it charges poorly. IC cars can do this too but thankfully it's a lot more rare generally when they are just off.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

Before anyone types out a wall-o-text pearl clutching about how all mechanical systems are unknown black boxes and surely the indy shop couldn't have sufficiently fixed the issue without compromising safety you may want to look at the discussion from last time a similar thing happened. You can likely find something in there to copy+paste and save yourself some time. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27814621 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27814621

zamadatix 5y ago
I started out already on the side of "this is something a 3rd party shop could easily fix in a solid way" but after reading your link I'm actually less sure about that than when I started. The case in this thread doesn't seem like a "we screwed a replacement piece on to fix the coolant leak" level fix like that thread, it sounds like serious work to the battery pack. I don't think it's pearl clutching to have concerns on $5,000 worth of unspecified repairs to a battery unit knowing Tesla does not hand out the information on how to properly service the vehicle to that level. I think Tesla should support this kind of fix by 3rd party shops though but barring that at the moment I think it's a fair question to ask.
- theshrike79 5y ago
  This is the age-old problem with PR. If a 3rd party shop botches a battery fix and the car burns down killing all the passengers the headlines won't be "3rd party botch-job kills family in EV" It will be "TESLA BATTERY FIRE KILLS FAMILY" and _maybe_ they'll mention the fact that the battery had 3rd party repairs in the middle of the article. This is why companies don't want random 3rd party shops fixing sensitive stuff. No matter how good they are.
- Corrado 5y ago
  There was also a comment on the video that mentioned that the fix probably wouldn't last. The battery packs are a unit and they don't like it when pieces are older / newer than the rest of the unit. Tesla might know that while replacing a single cell would fix the immediate problem it would eventually cause the whole battery to shut down. Maybe this is similar to when you have something really bad happen to an ICE motor (ie. broken valve), but you drain and flush the engine oil, which "fixes" the problem. And then 6 months later the engine grenades requiring a full replacement.

JohnJamesRambo 5y ago

This is why I will probably sell my Tesla when it gets even close to the 50k bumper to bumper warranty. Used car prices for Teslas are awesome, I could sell it to Carvana for more than I paid for it I think right now. I'm already having a load of trouble this morning getting a flat fixed because it has a slow leak and the tires have the acoustic foam inside them that prevents using green slime. Tesla wants $81 to fix it- if I drive an hour and a half to a service center. I love the gas savings but I don't want to drive a John Deere that can't be worked on when things go wrong.

philg_jr 5y ago
I took option to have the Tesla mobile tire service come to my house. I had several screws in one of my tires, and one was too close to the sidewall to plug. The guy in the van showed up to my house and had the full tire removed/mounted/balanced in about 15-20 minutes. I had to pay for the tire and service fee (obviously) but it was incredibly fast and convenient for me. I found the whole process impressive.
- misiti3780 5y ago
  I agree, i would just use their mobile service. they can fix everything minus software/sensor issues as far as i know.
- FartyMcFarter 5y ago
  That must be ridiculously expensive compared to using a generic tire fixing shop?
  - vagrantJin 5y ago
    I would argue, fairly, that a person who drives a Tesla is not too wound up about ridiculous costs.
  - philg_jr 5y ago
    The tire needed to be replaced regardless, and no shop around me had the exact tire in stock, so I would have had to wait and I needed to be able to drive safely (without screws in my tire) for work travel requirements. Most shops won't give you a discount on a single tire anyway, and Tesla's price on the tire was cheaper than Discount Tire Direct on eBay. The fee to replace the tire was $20, which is in line with a normal tire shop (mounting and balancing 4 tires is usually $60-80 in my experience).

spywaregorilla 5y ago

> Tesla recently released its Toolbox, a set of diagnostic software that will tell a repair shop or Tesla owner what’s wrong with a car. Anyone can purchase access to the Toolbox but it costs $3,000 a year or $100 for 24 hours. But diagnostics are only half the issue. > Replacement Tesla parts have to be installed by a certified Tesla dealership. Which begs the question, how did Benoit and his team replace Hoover’s battery? “We have alternate means of getting into things,” he said. “We don’t necessarily need the Toolbox in a lot of cases, but it would make our lives 10 time easier…Tesla is locking down more and more access to cars. There’s a lot of things that you used to be able to do that you no longer can do. They’re definitely tightening restrictions.” Am I reading this right, that the problem is solved by a $100 charge for a tool that could easily be passed on to the consumer? They imply the toolbox isn't all that's needed but then say “We don’t necessarily need the Toolbox in a lot of cases, but it would make our lives 10 time easier" Sounds like they're loosening restrictions, not tightening them?

nolok 5y ago
No you did not read that right. IDENTIFYING the problem is done by the $100 charge for 24 hours. They did without. Solving the problem was costing tens of thousands of dollars from Tesla if using their "certified" network, while they did it for 5k.
- 1123581321 5y ago
  Yes, but if independent shops can either do this for $5k or do it with a faster/easier diagnosis for $5.1k, that’s not a bad situation for either the shop or the car owner. It doesn’t sound terribly far off from the indie-vs-dealer choices I make as an ICE auto owner.
  - nolok 5y ago
    Sure but the quote was hand picked by parent, the core of the article and the meat of the (cost) complaint is not the toolbox access but the part replacement.

wavefunction 5y ago

I am somewhat happy to see this. I have been thinking recently about what will happen to all the small mechanic businesses that currently employ so many with the advent of "manufacturer limited" electric vehicles.

walrus01 5y ago

The more I see stuff like this, the more I'm convinced that life is measurably better, less costly, less stressful and less complicated by owning something like a $9000 used Toyota Corolla. Unless you have a truly ridiculously high salary/net worth and can afford to buy something like a model S plaid edition on a whim, for fun. At which point you're into the territory of people who do things like buy Nissan GT-R for fun and then pay aftermarket modification shops to make $65,000 of additional enhancements to them.

jliptzin 5y ago
Nobody is writing news articles about people who drive their Teslas without any issues. I’ve had my model 3 for over 2 years, not a single issue, no oil changes, no maintenance done on it whatsoever. 25k miles.
- lijogdfljk 5y ago
  Man that is sort of mind blowing. I would have thought there was often basic maintenance for .. something. Shouldn't you have rotated your tires a few times at least?
  - rzzzt 5y ago
    If my calculations are correct, the tires have rotated approx. 5.45 million times.
    - throwanem 5y ago
      "Rotating" as in mounting them on different corners of the car so that they wear evenly, I believe is what's meant here.
  - zdragnar 5y ago
    25k miles in two years is... not a lot of driving, at all. Even new ICE engines wouldn't need anything other than their oil changed. A tire rotation would probably be a good idea, though.

vl 5y ago

It would be nice of them to tell us what the actual problem was and provide breakdown of $5000 and $22000.

consumer451 5y ago
The source is this video. I don’t have time to queue it up to pertinent moment, but here is the link: https://youtu.be/T7Q0nNkQTCo https://youtu.be/T7Q0nNkQTCo They discussed all details in the video.

eyesee 5y ago

My Model 3 hit some road debris a couple years ago. It damaged the coolant line connector heading into the battery. Tesla replaced the entire battery for ~$15k, which probably could have been a $700 repair like that mentioned in the video. That said, my insurance covered the cost without a problem and I had my car back in 4 days. I don't know if they took possession of the original battery or negotiated a different rate, but it sounds like Tesla makes bank on this kind of repair. $15k for a new battery pack, a quick turnaround from their service center, and someone gets the old pack which in all likelihood was perfectly fine. There aren't a lot of shops that know how to repair a battery pack (in most of the country anyway). With less than 2% of cars on the road being EVs that's not surprising, but as more are sold you'll see more come about. The insurance companies will be very motivated to reduce these kinds of claims, and with real competition Tesla will no longer be able to justify the practice.

obenn 5y ago
In Ontario it is regulation to be able to obtain any of your car parts that got replaced, I wonder if it’s possible to request the old battery…
- brigade 5y ago
  The $15k is after a "core charge" of ~$10k (iirc) (aka at least in the US they can basically charge whatever they want extra if you demand your old parts)
  - mikestew 5y ago
    That's because the old parts are worth money. Check how much extra they want if you request your old tires after getting new ones. Hey, they took money off! Because folks might want your old batteries but they sure as hell don't want your old tires.
- jsight 5y ago
  It generally is, but in this case the insurance paid for it. I'd think they would be the ones that could do that.

whydoyoucare 5y ago

Tesla has always made me nervous, especially its remote software update/access capability doesn't inspire confidence nor a full proof-of-ownership. What is saved in gas is lost in repairs! :-(

martythemaniak 5y ago

The shop replaced 2 of the 8 modules, Tesla offered 8 new modules. Why wouldn't 8 cost four times as much as 2? Also, folks on Twitter are posting their Model S battery replacement work for about half that price. https://twitter.com/Ellesmaera/status/1434996312324419584 https://twitter.com/Ellesmaera/status/1434996312324419584 The tweet and invoice is from September 2021. Electrek has a picture of the invoice in question and it's from 2019: https://electrek.co/2021/09/13/tesla-battery-pack-replacement-repair/ https://electrek.co/2021/09/13/tesla-battery-pack-replacemen...

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jdhn 5y ago

Is this because of a lack of competition from other legacy manufacturers, Tesla is being uniquely greedy, or a mix of both?

gunapologist99 5y ago
Neither. For technical and historical reasons, Tesla can, and customers do not seem to care... until they do. (Exactly as with Apple products, but Teslas cost an order of magnitude more, so it's possible that Tesla will burn up customer goodwill faster; on the other hand, John Deere farming machines, which can cost a magnitude further at hundreds of thousands of dollars, are still purchased by customers as well, even with the John Deere right-to-repair and computerization issues.) Are these unwise choices that customers are making? It's probably only unwise when something goes wrong. ;) But people have bought many other expensive-to-repair vehicles (and other delicate machinery, like watches) for hundreds of years, so Tesla isn't exactly unique in that respect.

sly010 5y ago

Tesla is not that different from any consumer device company: Priority #1 is shareholder value and they have nothing to gain by making repair easy. In fact, by making things easy/cheap to fix they are going to loose a ton of revenue. But by locking things down they can prevent both 3rd party parts AND 3rd party labor. The long term solution might be for Tesla to offer longer leases, renewable warranty or other kind of recurring deals. Something like that would create a situation where all parties benefit: - Tesla engineers can truly focus on reliability, repairability, sustainability - Shareholders are happy about a reliable recurring revenue - Customers get cheaper/faster fixes and have no reason to fix things themselves Too idealistic?

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conductr 5y ago

Are conventional ICE repair shops making it up on volume? For example, if you have 10 cars a day coming in for major repairs your prices look different than if its only 1 car a week. They have less volume to spread the fixed cost around, etc, etc. I'm sure there is plenty of gouging going on, just wondering if this is a missing piece to explain some of the disparity.

rasz 5y ago
Dealers have repair hour lists. For example BMW N47 engine chain guides replacement (not the whole timing service, just a broken guide = slapping/rattling noise) is still an engine out/dropped gearbox job (timing chains are at the back of the engine) and might be charged as over 10 labour hours at >$100/hour + liquids + parts + diagnosis = usually $2-4K in US. Doesnt mean thats how long it takes, good mechanic can do it in under 2h.
- conductr 5y ago
  So just as egregious as the OP tesla battery since 2h/10h vs $5k/$25k ?
  - rasz 5y ago
    I wouldnt call this egregious, its the cost of owning a stupid BMW(/1). It would take you those 10h or longer to DIY. Efficient mechanic will put car on the lift, drop engine on hydraulic lift engine table and be done in 2h moving to the next job. /1 stupid because it was engineered for numbers and not real life use. Service intervals set by marketing - 15K miles engine oil changes, ZF transmission "lifetime fluid" LOL, all to appease fleet buyers with 3 year leases.

cassepipe 5y ago

Drunk post : I live in Europe where cities are more pedestrian/public transporation friendly so I am biased but still, Ok, I couldn't afford a Tesla unless I ask the bank for money that I will have to reimburse over at least ten years (oh wait the bank won't give me that sum anyways) so my thinking is : You bought an 100,000$ car so you can spend that sum on a car so you probably can spend 20,000$ on a repair years later. I get it it's overpriced but what you're paying for is not having to care on how/when it is fixed, you just call the number. Same reasoning if you have Apple hardware. If you're in the situation where you spend that sum on a car but you can't afford those repair prices you might have made a litle "caprice" just as my roommate who wanted a car and now is spending a thousand euros on his shitty second hand car each year (parking, insurance, repairs) which he can't afford. He should have stuck with freeriding public transportation imho. My point being : Yeah Luxury is overpriced but that's the point. If you can't afford having status symbols, don't.

AtlasBarfed 5y ago

Question about these battery replacements: Is Tesla crediting the user with the value of the battery being replaced? That battery has a boatload of perfectly functioning cells that I believe Tesla already uses for powerwalls and grid storage. It's directly in the swim lane of the entire battery recycling/full use lifecycle conversation. There's going to soon be a very healthy aftermarket in people adapting tesla batteries for bespoke projects and electrifying classic car chassis. People are scooping up salvage Teslas right and left for this stuff. I'm wondering how shady the service is being. "We have to replace the battery for 22k", OK do I get to keep the original battery component?

kodah 5y ago

I think there's a non-negligible amount of people who thought or convinced themselves they bought something other than a luxury car. Once you see things through the luxury car perspective all the odd things Tesla does make sense, like overpriced repairs and software locking.

ram_rar 5y ago

what you save in gas, will lose in repairs!! I have driven all sorts of sports cars, trucks, rvs etc. Nothing so far has beat 10k corolla. At the end of the day, traffic/road condition, AC and a decent music system gets me to inflection point. After that, it barely moves the needle for me.

RickJWagner 5y ago

I've really been wanting a nice electric car, but this scenario bothers me. You are holding the car when it goes out of warranty and you face a huge battery bill. What to do? If the battery costs as much as the car is worth? With the recent lifespan of ICE cars, they just seem better after 10+ years for this reason.