4 ms·

If vaccines are accessible to poor people (free or subsidised), how would vaccine passports hurt them?

by tsjq 5y ago

lolsal 5y ago
I imagine any fees/fines/consequences for not having a vaccine passport will be relatively more of a burden for the poor to bear. This same argument has been made for/against requiring voter id laws in the US.
BelenusMordred 5y ago
This question is answered in the article: > Those who are fully vaccinated may be amongst those denied access if they do not have a printer or mobile device, or if they have forgotten their documentation at home. This will especially impact the poor, those who are homeless, those with developmental delays or those who suffer from cognitive impairment.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ksaj 5y ago
  If you are going out somewhere that would need a covid passport, you're going to need your wallet one way or other. So I think forgetting the paper that should already be in your wallet to be one of the weakest arguments yet. And if they can afford to go to a place that would need the passport (restaurants, movies, et al) then they probably can also afford one of the 10 cents per page print shops you find all over the place. So that particular argument doesn't fly. At least "taking time off work" has some merit, but even then you can schedule around it. Over the course of almost a year so far, you must have at least some time in there to do it. So far in my work place, not one person has had to take time off due to illness from the shot. Sure there are people who do get ill from it, but it's a lot more rare than people make it out to be. Even in my friendship circle, only one person almost had to take time off, but inevitably didn't need to. A sore arm is nothing unless you're a professional bowler or whatever.
  - verdverm 5y ago
    What if we compare the arguments in this case with the arguments around voter ID laws?
    - winkeltripel 5y ago
      That's a great idea. The arguments against both are nearly identical, from my perspective. There's a big difference in these scenarios, in that the argument FOR vaccine passports is much stronger, in that the vaccines provide some level of herd immunity. There is no evidence that voter fraud is occurring at high rates in the US to have voter ID barriers (the alleged purpose, though not the true one). Intent also matters. The intent of vaccine passports is to reinforce the importance of herd immunity, to emphasize the legitimacy of the vaccines, and to protect frontline workers. The real intent of Voter ID laws (and voter roll purging, etc) is to disenfranchise. The intent taints the process, even if some of the components are reasonable (more options for valid photo-ID, more rigorous proof-of-residence rules, and more careful record keeping, etc).
      - verdverm 5y ago
        What if the arguments being made against each, rather than for, are compared? Vaccine passports will likely require photo id to ensure you are the person with the vaccination record. If requiring IDs to vote disenfranchises a portion of the population, wouldn't requiring IDs for X have the same effect? In example, what happens to those who cannot get an ID due to immigration status or other reasons?
        seanmcdirmid 5y ago
        In places that implement vaccine passports now, photo IDs aren't used. Rather QR codes on your phone are used. Check out https://www.dakotanewsnow.com/2021/08/11/south-dakotan-living-china-describes-vaccines-passport-qr-code-allow-travel/ https://www.dakotanewsnow.com/2021/08/11/south-dakotan-livin... But then again, some states are experimenting with digital IDs on your phone also (so you don't have to carry around your DL anymore).
sonjat 5y ago
The cost in vaccines isn't just in getting them. One has to take off work (twice) to get them, have transportation to get them, and be able to handle being potentially stuck in bed for 1-2 days after the second vaccine. I believe the last is probably leading to the most vaccine hesitancy. If I don't have sick leave, worry that I will get fired if I call in and/or have to take care of small children, I will probably keep putting off getting the vaccine hoping to find some more convenient time. Yes, of course, it will be worse if they get covid, but I doubt the calculation is: "I will never get the vaccine and hope I don't get covid". I suspect it is more "I will get the vaccine as soon as I get a chance to have two free days to schedule it"
blain 5y ago
If vaccines are accessible to poor people leading to more vacinnated populus, why are vaccine passports needed? I'm not anti-vax but I don't understand why people think vaccines are going to solve everything, isn't covid here to stay? why make it another control measure?
- dmalik 5y ago
  It primarily comes down to resources and cost. Right now in Ontario 80% of covid cases are coming from non fully vaccinated individuals(1). It costs $23k to treat a covid patient and $50k if they reach the ICU(2). Chances of not landing in the ICU are 99.9% if you're fully vaccinated(3). Many health resources are going to treat covid instead of things like elective surgeries. Allowing non-essential businesses to fully open without a vaccine passport will only lead to more cases and more resources being wasted. The thought of getting injured right now is scary because I could wait years for something like a herniated disc surgery (which is very debilitating). I'd much prefer we take steps to take as much strain off the health system as we can. 1 - https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-logs-600-new-covid-19-cases-as-province-reaches-new-vaccine-milestone-1.5583152 https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-logs-600-new-covid-19-cas... 2 - https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/cihi-covid19-canada-hospital-cost-1.6168531 https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/cihi-covid19-canada-hospital-... 3 - https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/31/health/fully-vaccinated-people-breakthrough-hospitalization-death/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/31/health/fully-vaccinated-peopl...
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    > The thought of getting injured right now is scary because I could wait years for something like a herniated disc surgery (which is very debilitating). And yet how much do you pay year after year for healthcare via taxes?
    - dmalik 5y ago
      > And yet how much do you pay year after year for healthcare via taxes? 11.5% of Canada’s gross domestic product (GDP). $265.5 billion, or $ 7064 per person. Imagine that will go up with covid... https://www.cihi.ca/en/health-spending https://www.cihi.ca/en/health-spending

If vaccines are accessible to poor people (free or subsidised), how would vaccine passports hurt them?

by tsjq 5y ago

If vaccines are accessible to poor people (free or subsidised), how would vaccine passports hurt them?

I imagine any fees/fines/consequences for not having a vaccine passport will be relatively more of a burden for the poor to bear. This same argument has been made for/against requiring voter id laws in the US.

BelenusMordred 5y ago

This question is answered in the article: > Those who are fully vaccinated may be amongst those denied access if they do not have a printer or mobile device, or if they have forgotten their documentation at home. This will especially impact the poor, those who are homeless, those with developmental delays or those who suffer from cognitive impairment.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ksaj 5y ago
If you are going out somewhere that would need a covid passport, you're going to need your wallet one way or other. So I think forgetting the paper that should already be in your wallet to be one of the weakest arguments yet. And if they can afford to go to a place that would need the passport (restaurants, movies, et al) then they probably can also afford one of the 10 cents per page print shops you find all over the place. So that particular argument doesn't fly. At least "taking time off work" has some merit, but even then you can schedule around it. Over the course of almost a year so far, you must have at least some time in there to do it. So far in my work place, not one person has had to take time off due to illness from the shot. Sure there are people who do get ill from it, but it's a lot more rare than people make it out to be. Even in my friendship circle, only one person almost had to take time off, but inevitably didn't need to. A sore arm is nothing unless you're a professional bowler or whatever.
- verdverm 5y ago
  What if we compare the arguments in this case with the arguments around voter ID laws?
  - winkeltripel 5y ago
    That's a great idea. The arguments against both are nearly identical, from my perspective. There's a big difference in these scenarios, in that the argument FOR vaccine passports is much stronger, in that the vaccines provide some level of herd immunity. There is no evidence that voter fraud is occurring at high rates in the US to have voter ID barriers (the alleged purpose, though not the true one). Intent also matters. The intent of vaccine passports is to reinforce the importance of herd immunity, to emphasize the legitimacy of the vaccines, and to protect frontline workers. The real intent of Voter ID laws (and voter roll purging, etc) is to disenfranchise. The intent taints the process, even if some of the components are reasonable (more options for valid photo-ID, more rigorous proof-of-residence rules, and more careful record keeping, etc).
    - verdverm 5y ago
      What if the arguments being made against each, rather than for, are compared? Vaccine passports will likely require photo id to ensure you are the person with the vaccination record. If requiring IDs to vote disenfranchises a portion of the population, wouldn't requiring IDs for X have the same effect? In example, what happens to those who cannot get an ID due to immigration status or other reasons?
      - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
        In places that implement vaccine passports now, photo IDs aren't used. Rather QR codes on your phone are used. Check out https://www.dakotanewsnow.com/2021/08/11/south-dakotan-living-china-describes-vaccines-passport-qr-code-allow-travel/ https://www.dakotanewsnow.com/2021/08/11/south-dakotan-livin... But then again, some states are experimenting with digital IDs on your phone also (so you don't have to carry around your DL anymore).

sonjat 5y ago

The cost in vaccines isn't just in getting them. One has to take off work (twice) to get them, have transportation to get them, and be able to handle being potentially stuck in bed for 1-2 days after the second vaccine. I believe the last is probably leading to the most vaccine hesitancy. If I don't have sick leave, worry that I will get fired if I call in and/or have to take care of small children, I will probably keep putting off getting the vaccine hoping to find some more convenient time. Yes, of course, it will be worse if they get covid, but I doubt the calculation is: "I will never get the vaccine and hope I don't get covid". I suspect it is more "I will get the vaccine as soon as I get a chance to have two free days to schedule it"

blain 5y ago

If vaccines are accessible to poor people leading to more vacinnated populus, why are vaccine passports needed? I'm not anti-vax but I don't understand why people think vaccines are going to solve everything, isn't covid here to stay? why make it another control measure?

dmalik 5y ago
It primarily comes down to resources and cost. Right now in Ontario 80% of covid cases are coming from non fully vaccinated individuals(1). It costs $23k to treat a covid patient and $50k if they reach the ICU(2). Chances of not landing in the ICU are 99.9% if you're fully vaccinated(3). Many health resources are going to treat covid instead of things like elective surgeries. Allowing non-essential businesses to fully open without a vaccine passport will only lead to more cases and more resources being wasted. The thought of getting injured right now is scary because I could wait years for something like a herniated disc surgery (which is very debilitating). I'd much prefer we take steps to take as much strain off the health system as we can. 1 - https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-logs-600-new-covid-19-cases-as-province-reaches-new-vaccine-milestone-1.5583152 https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-logs-600-new-covid-19-cas... 2 - https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/cihi-covid19-canada-hospital-cost-1.6168531 https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/cihi-covid19-canada-hospital-... 3 - https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/31/health/fully-vaccinated-people-breakthrough-hospitalization-death/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/31/health/fully-vaccinated-peopl...
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > The thought of getting injured right now is scary because I could wait years for something like a herniated disc surgery (which is very debilitating). And yet how much do you pay year after year for healthcare via taxes?
  - dmalik 5y ago
    > And yet how much do you pay year after year for healthcare via taxes? 11.5% of Canada’s gross domestic product (GDP). $265.5 billion, or $ 7064 per person. Imagine that will go up with covid... https://www.cihi.ca/en/health-spending https://www.cihi.ca/en/health-spending