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Is there more context here that's missing from the tweet thread? > And now they want to actually take Amazon's principles and claim that they're Rust's. These
by kixiQu 5y ago
Is there more context here that's missing from the tweet thread?
> And now they want to actually take Amazon's principles and claim that they're Rust's.
These just... literally... aren't Amazon's principles. At all. "The practice of coming up with pithy statements to guide decision-making" is the Amazon part.
> they've also taken steps to marginalize the core team. and some other dirty shit I won't say rn.
This sounds like the real concern, and it sounds really concerning, and I hope people come out to speak publicly and candidly about it. But it doesn't seem sensible to pretend that the making a list of adjectives is itself malign.
- Ansil849 5y ago> Is there more context here that's missing from the tweet thread? When is there not? Tweets are a horrible medium for contextual information.
- LanceH 5y agoIncredibly vague rants are designed to get people to take sides, presumably against Amazon, because they're big and therefor always doing evil. This reads like drama for the sake of drama. Edit: I should have said that posting this to HN is just posting drama. Using twitter to vent is fine, just not newsworthy in any way.
- q3rlkje 5y agoSteve is a full-fledged SJW twitterati. He doesn't know anything about anything. He just yells through twitter.
- stjohnswarts 5y agoUh it is newsworthy. This isn't Kim K tweeting about a particularly painful hangnail. It has some serious ramifications for the future of Rust if Amazon is becoming too powerful in the community.
- benatkin 5y agoSeems to be related to this post: https://smallcultfollowing.com/babysteps//blog/2021/09/08/rustacean-principles/ https://smallcultfollowing.com/babysteps//blog/2021/09/08/ru...
- mjw1007 5y agoThe announcement blog post at https://smallcultfollowing.com/babysteps//blog/2021/09/08/rustacean-principles/ https://smallcultfollowing.com/babysteps//blog/2021/09/08/ru... says the initial version was "quite closely modeled on AWS tenets".
- oxymoron 5y agoTenets as used internally at AWS are a set of principles that each team decides for themselves, as guides in the face of ambiguity. There's no overarching set of tenets (that I'm aware of), so this is probably just referring to the idea of having a guiding set of principles to resolve tradeoffs.
- whoknew1122 5y agoThis. Each org, team, and project has their own set of tenets. There are a few common sense tenets that are overarching (Security is priority 0), but there is no one set of 'AWS tenets.' Tenets are used as quick statements to validate decisions. And the tenants are always up for debate and revision. Using 'AWS tenets' isn't some nefarious way to control Rust. It's borrowing a useful (IMO) management/decision making structure to help guide decisions. Using 'AWS tenants' doesn't give AWS undue influence anymore than using the concept of Andon cords gives Toyota undue influence.
- fsociety 5y agoI disagree a lot. I don’t think using AWS Tenets was done nefariously.. but it has an important implication on the Rust community as a whole. Engineers are really relying on the Rust Foundation to do right by them, and by adopting Amazon or other big tech company principles it’s spitting in the face of engineers who don’t trust them and adding the potential for bias in decision making of the foundation. I’m hopeful that the Amazon contributors will understand this and show full support.
- whoknew1122 5y agoAgain, Rust hasn't adopted Amazon's principals. It has adopted a mechanism used by Amazon by which it can define its own principles. The tenets of the team I work on are stuff like 'treat every customer like your best friend on their worst day'. And 'learn something new every day'. They are tenets of a team in AWS, which makes them (to some extent) 'AWS tenets'. Are they somehow nefarious because there are people who don't trust anything that remotely relates to Amazon? Or are they innocuous statements of intent that are applicable to most companies? You don't have to like or trust Toyota to use Andon cords. You don't have to like or trust McKinsey to use the 7-S framework. You don't have to like or trust Motorola to use Six Sigma. You don't have to like or trust Amazon to use 'AWS tenets'.
- marricks 5y agoSteve Klabnik is well known in HN and in the Rust community, he mentioned it privately and doesn't seem to want to air dirty laundry more than he has too. You can either see his history and trust that he wants to get as much done with as little said as possible or say you trust Amazon. Either is understandable but I think it's reasonable to be a known member of a community and speak up just enough to hopefully get the ball rolling in a better direction.
- ilaksh 5y agoI assume that Amazon getting too much control is a real problem. But also suspect that deep down the true concern Klabnik has is that Steve Klabnik thinks Rust is about him, or at least he is the one that is supposed to write articles about what Rust is about. Not someone from Amazon or anywhere else.
- steveklabnik 5y agoI do not think Rust is about me. Note that I specifically say that Rust should not be about any individual, let alone a company. I’ve made my case against BDFLs for years.
- senderista 5y agoRust certainly cannot be “about” one person who has made zero technical contributions to the language.
- steveklabnik 5y agoOne of my favorite aspects of the way the Rust community has acted over the last decade is to recognize that there are many ways to contribute to open source. I know not everyone feels that way. Luckily, since I don't want Rust to be about me, we're in agreement that I should not be in charge of Rust.
- Animats 5y agoThat is a problem. Perl 6 and Python 3 did not go well.
- SloopJon 5y agoThe first tweet links to an InfoWorld article (pseudo-paywall and many ads): https://www.infoworld.com/article/3633002/the-future-of-rust.html https://www.infoworld.com/article/3633002/the-future-of-rust... Steve is probably objecting to the paragraph that starts, "Given that Matsakis and Miller both work at AWS, it's not surprising that the [Rustacean] principles started out as a spin on Amazonian tenets."
- thrwn_frthr_awy 5y ago>> they've also taken steps to marginalize the core team. and some other dirty shit I won't say rn. > This sounds like the real concern I actually think it distracts from their argument. Either say something or don 't. What purpose do vague accusations have here? Scare Amazon into behaving so not to get bad press? If the actions are concerning enough that Amazon should not have full-control, then why wouldn't those actions still not be pertinent if they do not define Rust.