4 ms·

BART is uniquely bad in that respect. Significantly worse than other North American cities. Chalk it up to Bay Area dysfunction and inequality. Used EVs will

by wffurr 5y ago

BART is uniquely bad in that respect. Significantly worse than other North American cities. Chalk it up to Bay Area dysfunction and inequality. Used EVs will be relatively affordable soon and the total cost of ownership is significantly lower.

refulgentis 5y ago
> Used EVs will be relatively affordable soon We're very far away from crossing under 30K, much less 10K
- cyberbanjo 5y ago
  Used Chevy volt for 5-15k, it seems you can get a sub 10k electric car already?
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    A Volt is a hybrid, not a pure electric. (The Bolt is Chevy’s BEV.)
    - ben_w 5y ago
      Even a hybrid is probably sufficient in this context.
      - sokoloff 5y ago
        Upthread context: “If I had a vote whether to ban combustion engines from my city (cars, trucks, mopeds, leaf blowers - everything), with a relatively short transition period (say 5 years), I'd be in favor.” In that context, the Volt (and other hybrids, plug-in or not) would either be banned or be required to disable their ICE engines in the city. * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28504461 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28504461
        perl4ever 5y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_is_the_enemy_of_good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_is_the_enemy_of_good But EVs are really not perfect anyway. People say why have two powerplants. The reason is to get rid of the (environmental impact of) 300 mile batteries. 90% of the time, 10% of the battery is enough. From the page above: "If you never miss a plane, you're spending too much time at the airport."
        ben_w 5y ago
        Indeed, and that was for the reason of ending emissions within a city. A poor person who commutes with one is likely (even though not guaranteed) to be using it over the sort of distance where the tiny battery is sufficient, so with regard to achieving that goal rather than that method, I think hybrids would probably be sufficient.
        sokoloff 5y ago
        I agree that banning all ICE vehicles in 5 years is not a practical nor worthwhile goal to pursue.
    - gregable 5y ago
      It's in a weird space. It's kinda a pure electric.
    - creato 5y ago
      So what? If it drives a few 10s of miles without burning gas, if everyone used them, that would eliminate probably 90%+ of emission pollution in cities. I feel that the obsession with pure electric has crippled the fight against pollution and CO2 emissions. Every car with 20 miles of battery range is probably a lot more impactful in the fight against climate change than 10% of cars with 200 miles of battery range, and has fewer major tradeoffs (cheaper, limited range/recharging is not an issue, much less need to build an entirely new charging infrastructure).
      - sokoloff 5y ago
        Upthread context is someone positing/supporting a total ban of all ICE in their city and someone arguing that’s disproportionately harmful to the poor because pure EVs are more expensive. In that context, it matters quite a bit that the Volt has an ICE, even though I overall agree with you on the Volt being environmentally beneficial. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28504461 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28504461
- sokoloff 5y ago
  My LEAF cost a little over $30K brand new (before $10K in total rebates). Used LEAFs (and Smart ED/EQs) are readily available in the $5K to $10K range.
NineStarPoint 5y ago
BART existing at all puts it ahead of the majority of cities in the US (for reference, per capita San Fansisco has the second most trips on public transit of any city in the US). New York is the only US city that has comparable public transit to international contemporaries. Long decades of poor planing in the US (and in general the low population density) make it a place ill-suited to public transportation. EVs affordable enough for the poor will definitely be required here, so here’s hoping you’re right and we’ll reach that point soon.
- gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
  >EVs affordable enough for the poor will definitely be required here Here in SW Ontario there are countless people riding those electric scooters or ebikes in the summertime. I’ve even seen old barflies hop on after drinking a pitcher and head on to the next spot. I’m sure the Bay Area has more clement weather year-round than here.
  - b9a2cab5 5y ago
    I commuted to/from a train on an electric scooter. Not only are they just not viable for any trips longer than 3-4 miles, you can't go up any sort of incline either. Mine was "overclocked" to enable up to 500w of power and I'm 180lbs, but it wouldn't be able to climb even a 10 degree incline at over walking speed. And at least the consumer ones you can find on Amazon are not robust enough to withstand even 6 months of daily use before the tire wears out, battery terminals corrode, and screws start falling out.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      I've used a normal bike and an e-bike and didn't have such issues.
      - b9a2cab5 5y ago
        $2k e-bikes are probably more robust than the $600 scooter I was riding and would definitely be my choice next time around. For anyone interested in e-scootering though, avoid the Segway ES series like hell and make sure you do your research.

by wffurr 5y ago

refulgentis 5y ago

> Used EVs will be relatively affordable soon We're very far away from crossing under 30K, much less 10K

cyberbanjo 5y ago
Used Chevy volt for 5-15k, it seems you can get a sub 10k electric car already?
- sokoloff 5y ago
  A Volt is a hybrid, not a pure electric. (The Bolt is Chevy’s BEV.)
  - ben_w 5y ago
    Even a hybrid is probably sufficient in this context.
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      Upthread context: “If I had a vote whether to ban combustion engines from my city (cars, trucks, mopeds, leaf blowers - everything), with a relatively short transition period (say 5 years), I'd be in favor.” In that context, the Volt (and other hybrids, plug-in or not) would either be banned or be required to disable their ICE engines in the city. * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28504461 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28504461
      - perl4ever 5y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_is_the_enemy_of_good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_is_the_enemy_of_good But EVs are really not perfect anyway. People say why have two powerplants. The reason is to get rid of the (environmental impact of) 300 mile batteries. 90% of the time, 10% of the battery is enough. From the page above: "If you never miss a plane, you're spending too much time at the airport."
      - ben_w 5y ago
        Indeed, and that was for the reason of ending emissions within a city. A poor person who commutes with one is likely (even though not guaranteed) to be using it over the sort of distance where the tiny battery is sufficient, so with regard to achieving that goal rather than that method, I think hybrids would probably be sufficient.
        sokoloff 5y ago
        I agree that banning all ICE vehicles in 5 years is not a practical nor worthwhile goal to pursue.
  - gregable 5y ago
    It's in a weird space. It's kinda a pure electric.
  - creato 5y ago
    So what? If it drives a few 10s of miles without burning gas, if everyone used them, that would eliminate probably 90%+ of emission pollution in cities. I feel that the obsession with pure electric has crippled the fight against pollution and CO2 emissions. Every car with 20 miles of battery range is probably a lot more impactful in the fight against climate change than 10% of cars with 200 miles of battery range, and has fewer major tradeoffs (cheaper, limited range/recharging is not an issue, much less need to build an entirely new charging infrastructure).
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      Upthread context is someone positing/supporting a total ban of all ICE in their city and someone arguing that’s disproportionately harmful to the poor because pure EVs are more expensive. In that context, it matters quite a bit that the Volt has an ICE, even though I overall agree with you on the Volt being environmentally beneficial. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28504461 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28504461
sokoloff 5y ago
My LEAF cost a little over $30K brand new (before $10K in total rebates). Used LEAFs (and Smart ED/EQs) are readily available in the $5K to $10K range.

NineStarPoint 5y ago

BART existing at all puts it ahead of the majority of cities in the US (for reference, per capita San Fansisco has the second most trips on public transit of any city in the US). New York is the only US city that has comparable public transit to international contemporaries. Long decades of poor planing in the US (and in general the low population density) make it a place ill-suited to public transportation. EVs affordable enough for the poor will definitely be required here, so here’s hoping you’re right and we’ll reach that point soon.

gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
>EVs affordable enough for the poor will definitely be required here Here in SW Ontario there are countless people riding those electric scooters or ebikes in the summertime. I’ve even seen old barflies hop on after drinking a pitcher and head on to the next spot. I’m sure the Bay Area has more clement weather year-round than here.
- b9a2cab5 5y ago
  I commuted to/from a train on an electric scooter. Not only are they just not viable for any trips longer than 3-4 miles, you can't go up any sort of incline either. Mine was "overclocked" to enable up to 500w of power and I'm 180lbs, but it wouldn't be able to climb even a 10 degree incline at over walking speed. And at least the consumer ones you can find on Amazon are not robust enough to withstand even 6 months of daily use before the tire wears out, battery terminals corrode, and screws start falling out.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    I've used a normal bike and an e-bike and didn't have such issues.
    - b9a2cab5 5y ago
      $2k e-bikes are probably more robust than the $600 scooter I was riding and would definitely be my choice next time around. For anyone interested in e-scootering though, avoid the Segway ES series like hell and make sure you do your research.