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Germany's federal police agency purchased and used 'Pegasus' spyware
- newbamboo 5y agoIf one nation does, every nation does. This is the core problem. Like nuclear weapons, one can’t choose to opt out. Defensive realism.
- swayson 5y agoAnd this is why certain events are considered catalysts on a slippery slope...
- garbagecoder 5y agoReminds me of the faux outrage over the US tapping Merkel’s phone only to find of course everyone either does this or wishes they could.
- samvega_ 5y agoYou think the reaction to Snowden's uncovering of NSA's global surveillance program was "faux outrage"?
- adventured 5y agoIn terms of how the other nations responded? Of course it was. They had to put on a good show for their citizens. The other eyes nations all understood the NSA & Co. had cooked up exceptionally broad technology. They all lied and pretended to be surprised and outraged. That faux outrage was for domestic propaganda consumption, because the alternative to that is to admit they were party to some of what the NSA has been up to for decades. All major affluent nations - without exception - understood the US had an intense global spy machine. That has been true for ~70 years now. Many of them are part of that machine. Of course they don't all know every program the US is working on, that makes little difference in whether they grasp the basics though. The know what the NSA does, they all have their own intelligence agencies, and they all partner with the US in one way or another. And some of those faux outrage nations are top tier spying nations themselves, including Russia and China. They lied and pretended to be surprised or shocked at what the US was doing. The point of that is similarly pure propaganda (in that case both for a domestic and international audience, it was a good opportunity to jab the US on propaganda).
- chmod775 5y agoYou are wrong. Most nations either don't have the capability to spy on foreign diplomats to this degree or it would be too risky for them to try - because they don't have the political power to survive repercussions. Then there's also nations - which may be surprising to US citizens - where government agencies respect laws, international agreements, and diplomatic immunity as a matter of process. It takes a particular kind of arrogance and belief in their immunity to repercussions to disregard these out of their own volition - without any instruction from country leadership.
- AQuantized 5y agoCan you give some concrete examples of exemplars of the latter paragraph?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- beebeepka 5y agoThe ones from government officials certainly was. You seriously think governments don't spy on each other? As if any politician in the world can poop without it being recorded.
- jn1234 5y agoCheaper than developing their own solution and Germany has very good relations with Israel.
- encryptluks2 5y agoHow many countries don't have high level officials reporting to Israel?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- ben_w 5y agoIsrael isn’t a very big or globally powerful nation, so I’d be very surprised if they care enough about minor nations not in their immediate area to even bother trying most places.
- NaturalPhallacy 5y ago>Israel isn’t a very big or globally powerful nation Israel has enormous influence over the most powerful nation on earth through AIPAC. Every president meets with them. Every Congressman goes to Israel as "tradition". Many federal representatives are dual Israeli/US citizens.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- ben_w 5y agoSure, and there’s a big gap between that and asking “How many countries don't have high level officials reporting to Israel?”, which is what I was replying to. Even without the USA having been a major destination for the Jewish diaspora while the point of modern Israel being a safe place for Jewish people[0], the global importance of the USA makes the American government a target for almost all other nations to try to influence. America gets this from both a the motive and opportunity directions. Most places, Israel has neither, IMO. [0] at least that’s what I was taught. If this isn’t the case, someone please tell me.
- BumbleCrock 5y agoMost of what you are saying is irrelevant and so it comes across as an attempt at obfuscation. Israel isn't "very big"? Wow, case closed. It must not be powerful, even though it is producing the most powerful spyware in the world. Brilliant.
- webmobdev 5y agoGovernments' have been known to be in the spying game since humans formed societies and kingdoms emerged. ( https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24749166 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24749166 ). Even our modern postal system are somewhat developed on the Roman model of its own messenger service, which was mainly created for easy spying and to protect the rulers from espionage. ( https://www.historynet.com/espionage-in-ancient-rome.htm https://www.historynet.com/espionage-in-ancient-rome.htm ) Pegasus is just a tool, and we shouldn't be shocked that a government owns or even uses such a tool. Our only concern should be whether the use of such tools are well-defined and legal, and upholds our democratic values. A functional and thriving democracy ensures that those voted to power cannot abuse their privilege. Or those who do abuse it cannot do so without repercussions. We can see this in action in India today, where the current Modi government in power is accused of abusing this very privilege and using Pegasus to spy on activists, journalists and opposition leaders that the Modi regime considers a threat to itself ( https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/explained-pegasus-and-the-laws-on-surveillance-in-india/article35516430.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/explained-pegasus-and... ). If true, that's a gross abuse of power, and a threat to India's democracy. Pegasus isn't the worry here - if a government in power doesn't have any respect for democracy, that threat will remain whether Pegasus exists or not. Opposition politicians have already raised the issue in the Parliament. Some of the concerned citizens, who believe they were the target of such surveillance, have already filed petitions in the Supreme Court of India, and the court has summoned the government to explain and defend itself ( https://www.livelaw.in/top-stories/pegasus-case-supreme-court-adjourns-hearing-till-sep-13-as-centre-seeks-time-for-affidavit-181060 https://www.livelaw.in/top-stories/pegasus-case-supreme-cour... ). If the allegation are true, this case will reveal how much the "checks and balances" of Indian democracy have failed (indicating that it has become a dysfunctional democracy). Or the revelations of this case may just strengthen indian democracy, with more checks and balances by the court and (who knows) maybe even stronger privacy laws. Germany (or any other country) too should have the same concerns - worry about your democracy and stronger privacy laws. Pegasus is irrelevant in the larger scheme.
- 1cvmask 5y agoYou write: A functional and thriving democracy ensures that those voted to power cannot abuse their privilege. Or those who do abuse it cannot do so without repercussions. - They always break the law and abuse it. And there are no repercussions for breaking the law. George W Bush onwards there is precedence for lack of liability or repercussions. The same applies to all other countries and sets the inspiration for them for the all tracking surveillance state, which will always be abused. Restrictions exist to curtail and limit human nature. Once those restrictions are removed or above the law then we all subjects are at the mercy of the elites and their elite narrative. Woe to those who try to defy this Brave New World.
- javajosh 5y agoMeta comment. The problem with these stories is that there's no follow-through. The generalization (the current top comment, by newbamboo) harms the narrative, because it gives the sense that everyone is doing it, there's nothing to be done, etc. This is wrong. Each wrong needs a persistent state machine to track the facts, who's responsible, what action can be taken, what action has been taken to rectify, until there is a conclusion, one way or another. This will often take the form of either a court case or a legislative process. Each of which can take years. All of us are helpless in 99.9% of injustices done, because they happen in another place, or because we aren't involved in the affected systems. That fact does not mean that injustice cannot be rectified! It just means we need to encourage those in a position to make a positive change to do so. Don't fall into the trap of equating a global lack of efficacy with a lack of local efficacy. What I'm trying to say is: don't get disheartened or depressed by the onslaught of injustice you read about all over the world. Take care of the things you can affect, and give moral support to the others doing the same in their region. So, let's hear it from the Germans! Whatcha gonna do?
- daanlo 5y agoThe easiest thing you can do is write a letter to your local member of parliament.
- daanlo 5y agoQuick update: I just sent a short & friendly email to my local member of parliament asking him about his position on the matter. Took about 10 minutes.
- javajosh 5y agoKül. If you send me your email I'll paypal you $5 for your trouble. Seriously.
- zdragnar 5y agoAround these parts, that would turn gp from a concerned citizen into a lobbyist, with all the regulations and what not that entails. I dunno about where you're from, but the moral is be careful when publicly paying people to petition their government.
- hyperstar 5y agoCan this thing infect any i-phone remotely?
- webmobdev 5y agoYes, it can - https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/infiltrated-by-pegasus-is-your-iphone-becoming-less-secure-7416101/ https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/infiltrated-by-p...
- hyperstar 5y agoSeems from that article as if, if one disables i-message and face-time, it MAY not work.
- albertgoeswoof 5y agoThey have a lot of zero days, and are constantly hunting more- presumably if you disable iMessage/FaceTime, they’ll use a different exploit You should assume there are more zero days in iOS than any engineering team could possibly patch, given the history of other closed source software.
- thephyber 5y agoThis is a bit defeatist. There are a finite number of no-click mechanisms on the iPhone which accepts content from arbitrary actors on the internet. If you disable them, there are precious few ways to get hacked without user interaction. If you disable iMessage, FaceTime, emails, etc, you still need to worry about the WiFi, Bluetooth, and cellular stacks. Obviously disabling them all turns your smartphone into something less useful. But I would argue that this isn’t unique to iPhone. There is more highlighting of iPhones because Apple is better at logging indicators of compromise on the device, so the audit trail of attempted/successful infection is better on Apple devices. In the past, some of the worst CVEs that affected Apple devices were pulled in from upstream open source projects. The core issue is not limited to closed-source projects (although I personally would like to see Apple support more red teamers to bang on their products).
- croes 5y agoThe german Minister of the Interior, Horst Seehofer, was allegedly not informed about it. Don't know which possibility is worth, that they really didn't inform him, or that they did and lie about.
- Jalad 5y agoThis reminds me of a good Yes Prime Minister scene[0]. The context for the scene is that the PM denied bugging a Member of Parliament's phone, but the civil service was actually bugging it unbeknownst to the PM. The explanation behind why the PM wasn't informed seems pretty relevant. [0] https://youtube.com/watch?v=NX45hc0aZt0 https://youtube.com/watch?v=NX45hc0aZt0
- literallyaduck 5y agoWhen any of them travel abroad they should be tried as spies.
- atok1 5y agoAll the big nation's pull this, unfortunately. Just some take longer to be reported on. We need to demand accountability for the countries that supply, and use these tools of terror.
- geocrasher 5y agoFor those unfamiliar with NSO and Pegasus, check out this podcast episode: https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/100/ https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/100/
- tompazourek 5y agoCame here to recommend this as well. I just listened to it today. It's good quality content.
- RattleyCooper 5y agoGermany claims they only used it on terrorists and organized crime members... I feel like one of the main issues is people still remember that thing Germany did way back when when they considered all Jews to be terrorists...