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It's completely and incontrovertibly bullshit that vaccines don't help unvaccinated people. Vaccines drastically reduce hospitalisation. That frees up medical

It's completely and incontrovertibly bullshit that vaccines don't help unvaccinated people. Vaccines drastically reduce hospitalisation. That frees up medical resources for everyone, especially those who aren't vaccinated and those that need care. We are already seeing medical procedures get postponed and hospital staff being pushed at the breaking point. The help to your community of being vaccinated is simply huge.

freeflight 5y ago
It’s not really as black&white as that. Vaccinated people are more prone to be asymptomatic when infected, which means they are less likely to notice the infection, thus less likely to isolate and go into quarantine. This is made even worse by the fact how a whole bunch of countries have stopped testing vaccinated people, they are just assumed healthy and not contagious by default. Now throw in vaccinated people demanding to be exempt from pandemic measures, like not having to wear masks anymore and being allowed into crowded venues, and vaccinated people have the biggest potential to become the new super spreaders.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Vaccinated people are less symptomatic because they have a lower viral load. Their infectivity window is lower. In the corresponding time frames, they have similar symptoms
  - freeflight 5y ago
    If they had similar symptoms then there would be no point to the vaccination at all because it’s symptoms why people get hospitalized. By now that’s even become the main argument for vaccinations: Less hospitalizations due to less severe symptoms. While all the talk about “herd immunity”, the original most pushed reason for mass vaccinations, has turned out to be not realistic.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      No, that's not what I'm saying. Whether you're unvaccinated or vaccinated, you are asymptomatic during the times you're most infectious. By the time you develop symptoms you're statistically not that likely to infect people if you're unvaccinated. If you were vaccinated, you would have cleared the infection already. And in vaccinated people even that infectious phase is lower.
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  None of your logic is valid if everyone gets vaccinated as it will be "as good as it can be". Some non controllable number of people will get the disease, but the number of people in ER and ICU will be way down and they can get the help they need instead of help from an exhausted, overworked ICU department that is far from in optimal condition to handle you and other non-covid emergency cases. Your "logic" simple falls apart at the seams.
h_anna_h 5y ago
> Vaccines drastically reduce hospitalisation. That frees up medical resources for everyone, especially those who aren't vaccinated and those that need care. Don't hospitalise unvaccinated people who have covid then, problem solved.
- thepasswordis 5y ago
  Okay. As long as you remove all medical regulations so that those people can buy whatever drugs or treatment machines they want.
- chana_masala 5y ago
  Sure, also don't offer services to the obese or smokers either (/s)
- longthrow1 5y ago
  Also don't hospitalise people who refuse to take care of their own health. They're a terrible and disproportionate burden on health care. We'll set a body fat % cutoff for care.
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    Or when it was clearly their own fault. Lets say sports like skiing, games or swimming. Maybe poisonings too if it was due neglience.
thepasswordis 5y ago
Yeah, again this is a great talking point for those who are enjoying their newfound power, but unfortunately for them (and fortunately for the inhabitants of this country!) the numbers do not bare this out: https://www.dph.illinois.gov/covid19/hospitalization-utilization https://www.dph.illinois.gov/covid19/hospitalization-utiliza... Do you know of a hospital system that’s overloaded in the way you are worried about? I’ve seen plenty of bloggers who talk about this, but they never seem to actually link to the data backing up their stories.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  What kind of argument is there to cite a single state's COVID ICU utilization as an argument? First of all, that's not total ICU utilization, which is the metric that should interests you. Illinois, the state you cherry-picked, has only 508 ICU beds remaining out of 3127. That's one doubling away from disaster. Here's an example of people dying because they couldn't find an ICU bed : https://meaww.com/ray-demonia-cardiac-failure-dies-icu-beds-full-capacity-no-hospital-covid-547820 https://meaww.com/ray-demonia-cardiac-failure-dies-icu-beds-... Right now the US is at the cusp of disaster with 78% nationwide ICU utilization. As we've seen some states are at functionally 100% utilization and turning away patients.
  - thepasswordis 5y ago
    78% ICU utilization is about the base load for ICUs. Hospitals are businesses. They don’t just create tons of empty ICU beds and then never use them. If you are getting your information from for profit blogs and magazines then I’d suggest doing a quick analysis on their motivations. Do you think they have more motivation to get you to click on their products, or more motivation to give you valid (but boring) information? Most of the states (all? I’ve looked at a lot of them) have some for of data dashboard that will give you a better overview of this. I’d highly suggest checking those instead of twitter/blogs/etc. It might not give the data that you are hoping for, but that’s kindof the behavior that is the problem (seeking out blogs and magazines that confirm your priors)
    - 5y ago

freeflight 5y ago

It’s not really as black&white as that. Vaccinated people are more prone to be asymptomatic when infected, which means they are less likely to notice the infection, thus less likely to isolate and go into quarantine. This is made even worse by the fact how a whole bunch of countries have stopped testing vaccinated people, they are just assumed healthy and not contagious by default. Now throw in vaccinated people demanding to be exempt from pandemic measures, like not having to wear masks anymore and being allowed into crowded venues, and vaccinated people have the biggest potential to become the new super spreaders.

sudosysgen 5y ago
Vaccinated people are less symptomatic because they have a lower viral load. Their infectivity window is lower. In the corresponding time frames, they have similar symptoms
- freeflight 5y ago
  If they had similar symptoms then there would be no point to the vaccination at all because it’s symptoms why people get hospitalized. By now that’s even become the main argument for vaccinations: Less hospitalizations due to less severe symptoms. While all the talk about “herd immunity”, the original most pushed reason for mass vaccinations, has turned out to be not realistic.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    No, that's not what I'm saying. Whether you're unvaccinated or vaccinated, you are asymptomatic during the times you're most infectious. By the time you develop symptoms you're statistically not that likely to infect people if you're unvaccinated. If you were vaccinated, you would have cleared the infection already. And in vaccinated people even that infectious phase is lower.
stjohnswarts 5y ago
None of your logic is valid if everyone gets vaccinated as it will be "as good as it can be". Some non controllable number of people will get the disease, but the number of people in ER and ICU will be way down and they can get the help they need instead of help from an exhausted, overworked ICU department that is far from in optimal condition to handle you and other non-covid emergency cases. Your "logic" simple falls apart at the seams.

h_anna_h 5y ago

> Vaccines drastically reduce hospitalisation. That frees up medical resources for everyone, especially those who aren't vaccinated and those that need care. Don't hospitalise unvaccinated people who have covid then, problem solved.

thepasswordis 5y ago
Okay. As long as you remove all medical regulations so that those people can buy whatever drugs or treatment machines they want.
chana_masala 5y ago
Sure, also don't offer services to the obese or smokers either (/s)
longthrow1 5y ago
Also don't hospitalise people who refuse to take care of their own health. They're a terrible and disproportionate burden on health care. We'll set a body fat % cutoff for care.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  Or when it was clearly their own fault. Lets say sports like skiing, games or swimming. Maybe poisonings too if it was due neglience.

thepasswordis 5y ago

Yeah, again this is a great talking point for those who are enjoying their newfound power, but unfortunately for them (and fortunately for the inhabitants of this country!) the numbers do not bare this out: https://www.dph.illinois.gov/covid19/hospitalization-utilization https://www.dph.illinois.gov/covid19/hospitalization-utiliza... Do you know of a hospital system that’s overloaded in the way you are worried about? I’ve seen plenty of bloggers who talk about this, but they never seem to actually link to the data backing up their stories.

sudosysgen 5y ago
What kind of argument is there to cite a single state's COVID ICU utilization as an argument? First of all, that's not total ICU utilization, which is the metric that should interests you. Illinois, the state you cherry-picked, has only 508 ICU beds remaining out of 3127. That's one doubling away from disaster. Here's an example of people dying because they couldn't find an ICU bed : https://meaww.com/ray-demonia-cardiac-failure-dies-icu-beds-full-capacity-no-hospital-covid-547820 https://meaww.com/ray-demonia-cardiac-failure-dies-icu-beds-... Right now the US is at the cusp of disaster with 78% nationwide ICU utilization. As we've seen some states are at functionally 100% utilization and turning away patients.
- thepasswordis 5y ago
  78% ICU utilization is about the base load for ICUs. Hospitals are businesses. They don’t just create tons of empty ICU beds and then never use them. If you are getting your information from for profit blogs and magazines then I’d suggest doing a quick analysis on their motivations. Do you think they have more motivation to get you to click on their products, or more motivation to give you valid (but boring) information? Most of the states (all? I’ve looked at a lot of them) have some for of data dashboard that will give you a better overview of this. I’d highly suggest checking those instead of twitter/blogs/etc. It might not give the data that you are hoping for, but that’s kindof the behavior that is the problem (seeking out blogs and magazines that confirm your priors)
  - 5y ago