4 ms·

Don't conflate a people with its government. They often have very different motivations.

by UnpossibleJim 5y ago

alistairSH 5y ago
We elect them. They are us.
- linuxftw 5y ago
  Speak for yourself. I've never voted for a single politician that supported the Iraq or Afghan wars.
  - yardie 5y ago
    The US government is us. The US government is not you. Better?
    - pessimizer 5y ago
      The US government is an agreement between two small private clubs who erected powerful legislative barriers against any competition.
pluc 5y ago
And that's why you have gotten and will get no change, because "it's not your fault". You all literally have guns for this reason. Get you some change.
- UnpossibleJim 5y ago
  Are we now to charge every citizen of every country with the sins of their country, then? When the paper eating citizenry of North Korea don't rebel, are we to throw charming coloquialisms at them or say they are supporting their government motivations? You're painting with an awfully broad brush against a very divided country on military policy which has been shaped by closed policy taking shape since the Carter administration. A lot of which was covert operations and came out when the freedom of information act came about. Now you expect a full blown violent revolution. What a short sighted, poorly thought out action.... but if violence and burning is the only way to "get you some change", it doesn't leave a lot for the future. Good luck and I wish you the best, but that isn't my way unless there is no other choice. And I mean no other choice, whatsoever.
  - trasz 5y ago
    US is divided in various different ways, but not in its approach to military. Warmongering support is bipartisan.
    - UnpossibleJim 5y ago
      It may be bipartisan, but it isn't very popular, according to poling =[
  - xboxnolifes 5y ago
    > Are we now to charge every citizen of every country with the sins of their country, then? > When the paper eating citizenry of North Korea don't rebel, are we to throw charming coloquialisms at them or say they are supporting their government motivations? Not quite, but if we are to claim ourselves to be a country "by the people, for the people", then yes, we bear at least some of the sins of our country. Maybe not past sins, but we certainly bear current sins if we do not at the very least actively go against them.
    - UnpossibleJim 5y ago
      I think you would be hard pressed to find a lot of people who truly believe that we still are a country "by the people, for the people" in a serious fashion. We hold up oligarchs as a ruling class, with laws that effect the bottom 95% of the country in a very different way than the top 5%. There are people in this country who deserve responsibility, but to level it at the masses who walk, ride or bike to one or two jobs seems a bit naive and unfair.
h_anna_h 5y ago
They do not care about the injustices that their elected government committed and that they funded via their taxes, as long as they can have their iphone and starbucks coffee in peace.
- kuraudo 5y ago
  We'll hem and haw about it, but you're right that we won't do anything. Is it a cosmic injustice worthy of the guillotine for every president and official that has presided over it? Absolutely, but that's the thing with evil empires: the people populating it don't want to risk their good lives in the pursuit of real justice.
sudosysgen 5y ago
Are you claiming that the US is not a democracy?
howaboutnope 5y ago
> See what gross inconsistency is tolerated. I have heard some of my townsmen say, “I should like to have them order me out to help put down an insurrection of the slaves, or to march to Mexico;—see if I would go”; and yet these very men have each, directly by their allegiance, and so indirectly, at least, by their money, furnished a substitute. The soldier is applauded who refuses to serve in an unjust war by those who do not refuse to sustain the unjust government which makes the war; is applauded by those whose own act and authority he disregards and sets at naught; as if the state were penitent to that degree that it differed one to scourge it while it sinned, but not to that degree that it left off sinning for a moment. Thus, under the name of Order and Civil Government, we are all made at last to pay homage to and support our own meanness. After the first blush of sin comes its indifference; and from immoral it becomes, as it were, unmoral, and not quite unnecessary to that life which we have made. -- Henry David Thoreau, "Civil Disobedience" (1849)

Don't conflate a people with its government. They often have very different motivations.

alistairSH 5y ago

We elect them. They are us.

linuxftw 5y ago
Speak for yourself. I've never voted for a single politician that supported the Iraq or Afghan wars.
- yardie 5y ago
  The US government is us. The US government is not you. Better?
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    The US government is an agreement between two small private clubs who erected powerful legislative barriers against any competition.

pluc 5y ago

And that's why you have gotten and will get no change, because "it's not your fault". You all literally have guns for this reason. Get you some change.

UnpossibleJim 5y ago
Are we now to charge every citizen of every country with the sins of their country, then? When the paper eating citizenry of North Korea don't rebel, are we to throw charming coloquialisms at them or say they are supporting their government motivations? You're painting with an awfully broad brush against a very divided country on military policy which has been shaped by closed policy taking shape since the Carter administration. A lot of which was covert operations and came out when the freedom of information act came about. Now you expect a full blown violent revolution. What a short sighted, poorly thought out action.... but if violence and burning is the only way to "get you some change", it doesn't leave a lot for the future. Good luck and I wish you the best, but that isn't my way unless there is no other choice. And I mean no other choice, whatsoever.
- trasz 5y ago
  US is divided in various different ways, but not in its approach to military. Warmongering support is bipartisan.
  - UnpossibleJim 5y ago
    It may be bipartisan, but it isn't very popular, according to poling =[
- xboxnolifes 5y ago
  > Are we now to charge every citizen of every country with the sins of their country, then? > When the paper eating citizenry of North Korea don't rebel, are we to throw charming coloquialisms at them or say they are supporting their government motivations? Not quite, but if we are to claim ourselves to be a country "by the people, for the people", then yes, we bear at least some of the sins of our country. Maybe not past sins, but we certainly bear current sins if we do not at the very least actively go against them.
  - UnpossibleJim 5y ago
    I think you would be hard pressed to find a lot of people who truly believe that we still are a country "by the people, for the people" in a serious fashion. We hold up oligarchs as a ruling class, with laws that effect the bottom 95% of the country in a very different way than the top 5%. There are people in this country who deserve responsibility, but to level it at the masses who walk, ride or bike to one or two jobs seems a bit naive and unfair.

h_anna_h 5y ago

They do not care about the injustices that their elected government committed and that they funded via their taxes, as long as they can have their iphone and starbucks coffee in peace.

kuraudo 5y ago
We'll hem and haw about it, but you're right that we won't do anything. Is it a cosmic injustice worthy of the guillotine for every president and official that has presided over it? Absolutely, but that's the thing with evil empires: the people populating it don't want to risk their good lives in the pursuit of real justice.

sudosysgen 5y ago

Are you claiming that the US is not a democracy?

howaboutnope 5y ago

> See what gross inconsistency is tolerated. I have heard some of my townsmen say, “I should like to have them order me out to help put down an insurrection of the slaves, or to march to Mexico;—see if I would go”; and yet these very men have each, directly by their allegiance, and so indirectly, at least, by their money, furnished a substitute. The soldier is applauded who refuses to serve in an unjust war by those who do not refuse to sustain the unjust government which makes the war; is applauded by those whose own act and authority he disregards and sets at naught; as if the state were penitent to that degree that it differed one to scourge it while it sinned, but not to that degree that it left off sinning for a moment. Thus, under the name of Order and Civil Government, we are all made at last to pay homage to and support our own meanness. After the first blush of sin comes its indifference; and from immoral it becomes, as it were, unmoral, and not quite unnecessary to that life which we have made. -- Henry David Thoreau, "Civil Disobedience" (1849)