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The thing that people seem to be ignoring in all of this is that people like having power. The vaccines are helpful to the recipient, but unless you are succes

The thing that people seem to be ignoring in all of this is that people like having power. The vaccines are helpful to the recipient, but unless you are successful at completely shutting down travel to the rest of the world: not really that helpful to the people who haven't taken them. In fact, there is an argument for how over-vaccinating will be harmful to the unvaccinated. If you're vaccinated, you can still get and transmit covid. You just don't get as sick. The vaccine protects you. So why these vaccine mandates? Vaccine passports? Etc. Because people simply enjoy the act of getting to tell others what to do. Anybody who has ever interacted with an HOA will be familiar with this. The data shows that these do not have a positive effect, but the people enacting them enjoy it, and the people who have found themselves on the enforcment side of the political divide enjoy the feeling of righteousness they experience because of them. I can’t reply to everybody making the same incorrect point. Here is the graph of Texas’s hospital utilization: https://covid-texas.csullender.com/ https://covid-texas.csullender.com/ (Luckily Texas gives us great data!). The graph here you are looking for is the one that shows the percentage of staffed beds and icu beds occupied. Notice that it is entirely flat. Here’s a really interesting statistic that suggests even less effectiveness of these control measures: the vaccines appear to have had no effect on hospital utilization.

mapme 5y ago
For me the major point of vaccinating others is ensuring hospitals are not overwhelmed and have enough capacity to treat other patients and perform elective procedures. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.com/amp/news/2021/08/09/abbott-texas-hospitals-covid-503066 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.com/amp/news/2021/...
- thepasswordis 5y ago
  Yeah this sure is a common talking point that comes up, but unfortunately for those who enjoy enforcing these things, it is not backed up by any data. Daily deaths (which is the best proxy we have for hospitalization) is nowhere near any of the peaks we have had in the last year and a half. If somehow deaths are down but hospital capacity is also down, that is the fault of the hospitals, not the vaccinated. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
  - mapme 5y ago
    Did you read the linked article? The governor of one of the largest US states asked hospitals to delay elective procedures to ensure hospital capacity.
  - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
    You seem to be missing another option: that treatments get better so that hospitalization leads to fewer deaths than it did earlier. Which seems obviously true. Why would deaths be the best proxy for hospitalization? Why don't you have actual hospitalization numbers?
- makomk 5y ago
  The UK probably has a large chunk of the benefit it could ever possibly get in terms of stopping the hospitals from being overwhelmed - vaccination levels are very high in the age groups that're most at risk here.
bequanna 5y ago
In addition to the power, don’t forget the pseudo celebrity status that many formerly ignored politicians and bureaucrats have enjoyed. The hour long daily briefings rarely contain any new information and are nothing but pure ego and attention seeking. Exactly like a movie star whose time is passing, you should bet they will do whatever it takes to stay in the spotlight and stay relevant.
- prawn 5y ago
  The daily briefings in NSW (Australia) ceased this week and there was immediate criticism that it was a vital service that should've been maintained. The media and public create that public brand; the health rep is generally just doing their job. In my state, the relevant person happens to have a recognisable hairstyle. It's not like she has a PR team going out telling people to dress as her for halloween or parties, people just do things like that, then the media covers that, and people send the link around and on it goes. Given the intense reactions that are the norm around this pandemic, I'm sure she'd feel safer without that level of attention.
  - bequanna 5y ago
    I appreciate that you are able to give people the benefit of the doubt, but that isn’t human nature. Most people are not self sacrificing do gooders. Indeed, almost everyone is self interested. Don’t be surprised when the person you cite above who will “feel safer without that level of attention” suddenly decides to step back into the limelight seeking some higher office or elevated position.
xphilter 5y ago
Wouldn’t another reason be to reduce cost? It’s expensive to treat covid patients and the vaccine is proven to reduce the incidents of hospitalization. But I’m willing to forgo all vaccine mandates, mask mandates, etc if we can all agree that unvaccinated have to pay for their own treatment or buy bespoke covid insurance.
- tomp 5y ago
  As an unvaccinated (but protected by naturally-acquired immunity) I completely agree with this. As long as the same is true for car accident victims (except pedestrians), HIV patients (except those that got it via birth/rape), obese people, smokers, drinkers, skiers, ... All these are 100% voluntary activities that put undue burden on the medical system.
  - ericmay 5y ago
    I think the difference is effort to get the vaccine is very close to 0 - it’s free, you can get one at Costco. And what’s the benefit or not getting it? As much as I despise cars you can at least go do something arguably beneficial with them. I think we should have fewer though because they do cause unnecessary deaths. But what is gained by not having the vaccine? If I have a car I can do something beneficial. If you don’t get the vaccine you can transmit the disease or wind up in the hospital and for what reason? Do you, or society get much pleasure from skiing? Seems like it. There’s an entire industry. Will there be COVID-19 resorts and YouTube videos showing who can get the sickest or something? We do deprioritize smokers and drinkers BTW on the transplant list.
  - pbourke 5y ago
    If I’m in my home and you get into a car accident across town, you can’t injure me. The same is not true if you contract and spread the virus.
    - ghoward 5y ago
      Not GP. You're comparing apples to oranges. If I get into a car accident and you're across town, you're right, that doesn't affect you. Likewise, if I get COVID and you're across town, I can't infect you, so likewise, you're not affected. However, if we're on the same side of town, and I get into a car accident, it could affect you because I might hit you. Likewise, if I get COVID, and we're on the same side of town, I could infect you. You might protest that I could still infect you if I get COVID on the opposite side of town by infecting someone else who infects you. This is false. The person who actually infected you infected you. To claim it was my fault that you got infected means that we should all blame patient zero and China. I mean, we should blame China, but probably not patient zero.
junon 5y ago
> The vaccines are helpful to the recipient, but . . . not really that helpful to the people who haven't taken them. This isn't true, though.
sudosysgen 5y ago
It's completely and incontrovertibly bullshit that vaccines don't help unvaccinated people. Vaccines drastically reduce hospitalisation. That frees up medical resources for everyone, especially those who aren't vaccinated and those that need care. We are already seeing medical procedures get postponed and hospital staff being pushed at the breaking point. The help to your community of being vaccinated is simply huge.
- freeflight 5y ago
  It’s not really as black&white as that. Vaccinated people are more prone to be asymptomatic when infected, which means they are less likely to notice the infection, thus less likely to isolate and go into quarantine. This is made even worse by the fact how a whole bunch of countries have stopped testing vaccinated people, they are just assumed healthy and not contagious by default. Now throw in vaccinated people demanding to be exempt from pandemic measures, like not having to wear masks anymore and being allowed into crowded venues, and vaccinated people have the biggest potential to become the new super spreaders.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Vaccinated people are less symptomatic because they have a lower viral load. Their infectivity window is lower. In the corresponding time frames, they have similar symptoms
    - freeflight 5y ago
      If they had similar symptoms then there would be no point to the vaccination at all because it’s symptoms why people get hospitalized. By now that’s even become the main argument for vaccinations: Less hospitalizations due to less severe symptoms. While all the talk about “herd immunity”, the original most pushed reason for mass vaccinations, has turned out to be not realistic.
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        No, that's not what I'm saying. Whether you're unvaccinated or vaccinated, you are asymptomatic during the times you're most infectious. By the time you develop symptoms you're statistically not that likely to infect people if you're unvaccinated. If you were vaccinated, you would have cleared the infection already. And in vaccinated people even that infectious phase is lower.
Straw 5y ago
All the data suggests that vaccines significantly reduce transmission, both by decreasing the likelihood of infection and onward transmission from vaccinated individuals. Additionally, anything that incentivizes more people to get the vaccine will result in higher uptake, which benefits everyone in terms of lower overall spread and hospital usage.
- mapme 5y ago
  Exactly, the attack rate of vaccinated individuals who are infected is significantly lower.
- 13years 5y ago
  All the current data suggests something very different. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/08/06/fully-vaccinated-may-transmit-delta-just-as-easily-and-new-variant-shows-signs-of-vaccine-evasion-early-uk-research-suggests/?sh=5124b8e71ac5 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/08/06/fully-v...
  - Straw 5y ago
    I can't find any source in there suggesting a lack of effectiveness. The underlying source linked by the article mentions a reduction of 80% in symptomatic disease, which is responsible for most transmission. I can't find anything very recent, but here's an analysis that takes Delta into account: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1001169/S1301_SPI-M-O_Summary_Roadmap_second_Step_4.2__1_.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2UWZ6fhhJHGWNN4vq5NeuIX91DhhV6RXycOJhDtSUoPPRLv0F3dnGrG8E https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... Finding 80+% protection against symptomatic disease and ~40% reduction in onwards transmission, from three different modelling groups.
    - 13years 5y ago
      Those estimates are based on modelling with assumptions to fill in missing information. Significant is the assumption of little waning immunity. Current data trends don't look so optimistic. https://dailysceptic.org/2021/08/22/latest-phe-data-shows-vaccine-effectiveness-down-to-just-15-in-the-over-50s-37-in-the-under-50s-deaths-cut-by-80-in-over-50s-but-just-12-in-under-50s/ https://dailysceptic.org/2021/08/22/latest-phe-data-shows-va...
javagram 5y ago
> If you're vaccinated, you can still get and transmit covid. You just don't get as sick. The vaccine protects you. The vaccine reduces the chance you can get and transmit covid. 40-60% protection against infection, and even when there is a breakthrough case viral load declines faster than in an unvaccinated person meaning less chance and time to spread the virus to others. > So why these vaccine mandates? Vaccine passports? Etc. Because people simply enjoy the act of getting to tell others what to do. Anybody who has ever interacted with an HOA will be familiar with this. No, it’s because lots of people are literally dying. An HOA arguing with you over the color of your garage door or the height of your lawn is, at most, trying to protect property values or as you say just being a busybody.
SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
> If you're vaccinated, you can still get and transmit covid. I can win the lottery, but I probably won't. Don't think of it as black or white, binary, can/can't. Unless you talk about the probability of getting and transmitting COVID, and how vaccination reduces these, you will be making nonsensical statements like the one above.
htkgigktmrnnr 5y ago
> The graph here you are looking for is the one that shows the percentage of staffed beds and icu beds occupied. Notice that it is entirely flat. So why did hospitals declare that they have no ICU beds available and that they are sending patients out of state? > At least 53 Texas hospitals have no available ICU capacity, according to numbers reported to the federal government during the week ending Aug. 5. In Austin, five hospitals were at or above 90% of their ICU capacity during the same period, with two reporting no available ICU beds https://www.texastribune.org/2021/08/10/coronavirus-texas-hospitals-icu-beds/ https://www.texastribune.org/2021/08/10/coronavirus-texas-ho...
- chana_masala 5y ago
  It could be related to staff shortages. Number of beds is not a literal figure, it also accounts for the number of staff that can treat patients in the bed. If you're short staffed you're short bed'd too
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    That still contraticts the sentence he quoted.
- thepasswordis 5y ago
  I don’t know. But what I do know is that data will speak much more clearly than somebody’s news article. Those hospitals at 90%: what is their base load? The hospitals with no beds: what is their base load? These things make very profitable news articles, but they don’t do a very good job of informing.
  - htkgigktmrnnr 5y ago
    The news article is literally quoting hospitals saying they are out of ICU beds. But you trust a dashboard more...
toast0 5y ago
> The graph here you are looking for is the one that shows the percentage of staffed beds and icu beds occupied. Notice that it is entirely flat. Compare June to September, total staffed beds is about even, total ICU beds grew somewhat, and usage of both jumped from about 80% to 88% for overall beds, and 90ish to 96% for ICUs (which is a bigger increase in use than it might seem because capacity increased) If overall use increased 10% and covid users are 20% of overall and 40% of ICU, up from maybe 5% and 10%, it seems there are a lot of non-covid users whose care is being delayed or denied because of covid. There's some room for misleading statistical information, such as ICU patients in for something else that happen to have asymptomatic covid and are only tested because of other patients, but the difference in stats seems large enough to ignore that. Stats I've heard are that the vast majority of hospitalized covid patients in most states had not been vacinated, so it does seem useful to the person taking them, and by reducing the overall hospitalization rate, seem to have kept Texas within hospital capacity, if barely (I haven't heard stories of Texas hospitals running triage and tents in parking garage like some other states)
stjohnswarts 5y ago
You are 100% wrong. The purpose of mandating the vaccine is to keep people from dying, particularly older, immune compromised people and kids who can't get the vaccine just yet. I'm tired of this damn limbo of somewhere in the middle. If you don't want to get a vaccine then don't work for one of the employers that will now be required to make sure their workers are immunized. Your rights end at the end of your nose. No one is going to come looking for you to drag you out to the street and get immunized. However if you want to participate with the rest of us then get vaccinated. Texas is currently a shit show of overcrowded hospitals, voter suppression laws, and pro-birther (but not pro life) people trying to install their theocracy. I know because I live here.
- 34523trefds12 5y ago
  Unfortunately you are also 100% wrong. For example, a care home in London recently held a trip, all individuals in attendance were 'double jabbed', and were required to bring a negative PCR test. The attendees were not allowed to board the coach if they did not bring a negative PCR test. Attendees also had their temperatures taken before bording the coach and were also asked about how they felt, and encouraged not to come should they even feel like they have any symptom/s. The next day, a member of staff tests positive. Simply being double jabbed isn't a solution, because the vaccine, fundamentally, doesn't work the way you think. Whilst a jab may remove some affects of Covid, it does not stop transmission; Covid can and will be passed from those who are vaccinated to vulnerable people regardless. This results in a quandry where advocating for proof of a negative test can not actually be proof of a negative test, and being double jabbed does not stop an individual from catching Covid and stopping them from suffering. Forcing people to be jabbed is unethical; boys have been reported to be 6x more likely to suffer vaccine-related myocarditis than ending up in hospital with Covid. What groups are deemed more precious? Are our young boys worth sacrificing, or should we sacrifice those who's age is greater than the average age of death? Excluding people from society because they are not willing to take a drug which is still experimental; The CDC may have approved it, but in the UK has not its approval is temporary and that lasts one year:(https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4759 https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4759). It also quite frightening to hear power hungry individuals advocating agency over anothers body; I find your comment regarding Texas ironic given the current abortion issues present, but perhaps you agree with that removal as well. When rights are removed, they do not come back. we still remove our shoes when travelling through airport security. It is important that we consider the our actions and implications for the long term, not just the current political cycle.
perlgeek 5y ago
> If you're vaccinated, you can still get and transmit covid. You just don't get as sick. The vaccine protects you. While you still can transmit COVID-19 if you're vaccinated against it, it's far less likely (the time during which you can transmit the disease is far shorter). So while your statement might be technically correct, it is also very misleading. > In fact, there is an argument for how over-vaccinating will be harmful to the unvaccinated. What is over-vaccinating (and in a pandemic, no less)? And what is that argument you speak of?
dragonwriter 5y ago
> If you're vaccinated, you can still get and transmit covid. If you are vaccinated you are less likely to get COVID, less likely to spread it at peak (except, apparently, with Delta) while you have it, and have a shorter contagious period (even with Delta). So, yes, you can still get and spread it, but you are significantly less likely to.

mapme 5y ago

For me the major point of vaccinating others is ensuring hospitals are not overwhelmed and have enough capacity to treat other patients and perform elective procedures. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.com/amp/news/2021/08/09/abbott-texas-hospitals-covid-503066 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.com/amp/news/2021/...

thepasswordis 5y ago
Yeah this sure is a common talking point that comes up, but unfortunately for those who enjoy enforcing these things, it is not backed up by any data. Daily deaths (which is the best proxy we have for hospitalization) is nowhere near any of the peaks we have had in the last year and a half. If somehow deaths are down but hospital capacity is also down, that is the fault of the hospitals, not the vaccinated. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
- mapme 5y ago
  Did you read the linked article? The governor of one of the largest US states asked hospitals to delay elective procedures to ensure hospital capacity.
- amanaplanacanal 5y ago
  You seem to be missing another option: that treatments get better so that hospitalization leads to fewer deaths than it did earlier. Which seems obviously true. Why would deaths be the best proxy for hospitalization? Why don't you have actual hospitalization numbers?
makomk 5y ago
The UK probably has a large chunk of the benefit it could ever possibly get in terms of stopping the hospitals from being overwhelmed - vaccination levels are very high in the age groups that're most at risk here.

bequanna 5y ago

In addition to the power, don’t forget the pseudo celebrity status that many formerly ignored politicians and bureaucrats have enjoyed. The hour long daily briefings rarely contain any new information and are nothing but pure ego and attention seeking. Exactly like a movie star whose time is passing, you should bet they will do whatever it takes to stay in the spotlight and stay relevant.

prawn 5y ago
The daily briefings in NSW (Australia) ceased this week and there was immediate criticism that it was a vital service that should've been maintained. The media and public create that public brand; the health rep is generally just doing their job. In my state, the relevant person happens to have a recognisable hairstyle. It's not like she has a PR team going out telling people to dress as her for halloween or parties, people just do things like that, then the media covers that, and people send the link around and on it goes. Given the intense reactions that are the norm around this pandemic, I'm sure she'd feel safer without that level of attention.
- bequanna 5y ago
  I appreciate that you are able to give people the benefit of the doubt, but that isn’t human nature. Most people are not self sacrificing do gooders. Indeed, almost everyone is self interested. Don’t be surprised when the person you cite above who will “feel safer without that level of attention” suddenly decides to step back into the limelight seeking some higher office or elevated position.

xphilter 5y ago

Wouldn’t another reason be to reduce cost? It’s expensive to treat covid patients and the vaccine is proven to reduce the incidents of hospitalization. But I’m willing to forgo all vaccine mandates, mask mandates, etc if we can all agree that unvaccinated have to pay for their own treatment or buy bespoke covid insurance.

tomp 5y ago
As an unvaccinated (but protected by naturally-acquired immunity) I completely agree with this. As long as the same is true for car accident victims (except pedestrians), HIV patients (except those that got it via birth/rape), obese people, smokers, drinkers, skiers, ... All these are 100% voluntary activities that put undue burden on the medical system.
- ericmay 5y ago
  I think the difference is effort to get the vaccine is very close to 0 - it’s free, you can get one at Costco. And what’s the benefit or not getting it? As much as I despise cars you can at least go do something arguably beneficial with them. I think we should have fewer though because they do cause unnecessary deaths. But what is gained by not having the vaccine? If I have a car I can do something beneficial. If you don’t get the vaccine you can transmit the disease or wind up in the hospital and for what reason? Do you, or society get much pleasure from skiing? Seems like it. There’s an entire industry. Will there be COVID-19 resorts and YouTube videos showing who can get the sickest or something? We do deprioritize smokers and drinkers BTW on the transplant list.
- pbourke 5y ago
  If I’m in my home and you get into a car accident across town, you can’t injure me. The same is not true if you contract and spread the virus.
  - ghoward 5y ago
    Not GP. You're comparing apples to oranges. If I get into a car accident and you're across town, you're right, that doesn't affect you. Likewise, if I get COVID and you're across town, I can't infect you, so likewise, you're not affected. However, if we're on the same side of town, and I get into a car accident, it could affect you because I might hit you. Likewise, if I get COVID, and we're on the same side of town, I could infect you. You might protest that I could still infect you if I get COVID on the opposite side of town by infecting someone else who infects you. This is false. The person who actually infected you infected you. To claim it was my fault that you got infected means that we should all blame patient zero and China. I mean, we should blame China, but probably not patient zero.

junon 5y ago

> The vaccines are helpful to the recipient, but . . . not really that helpful to the people who haven't taken them. This isn't true, though.

sudosysgen 5y ago

It's completely and incontrovertibly bullshit that vaccines don't help unvaccinated people. Vaccines drastically reduce hospitalisation. That frees up medical resources for everyone, especially those who aren't vaccinated and those that need care. We are already seeing medical procedures get postponed and hospital staff being pushed at the breaking point. The help to your community of being vaccinated is simply huge.

freeflight 5y ago
It’s not really as black&white as that. Vaccinated people are more prone to be asymptomatic when infected, which means they are less likely to notice the infection, thus less likely to isolate and go into quarantine. This is made even worse by the fact how a whole bunch of countries have stopped testing vaccinated people, they are just assumed healthy and not contagious by default. Now throw in vaccinated people demanding to be exempt from pandemic measures, like not having to wear masks anymore and being allowed into crowded venues, and vaccinated people have the biggest potential to become the new super spreaders.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Vaccinated people are less symptomatic because they have a lower viral load. Their infectivity window is lower. In the corresponding time frames, they have similar symptoms
  - freeflight 5y ago
    If they had similar symptoms then there would be no point to the vaccination at all because it’s symptoms why people get hospitalized. By now that’s even become the main argument for vaccinations: Less hospitalizations due to less severe symptoms. While all the talk about “herd immunity”, the original most pushed reason for mass vaccinations, has turned out to be not realistic.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      No, that's not what I'm saying. Whether you're unvaccinated or vaccinated, you are asymptomatic during the times you're most infectious. By the time you develop symptoms you're statistically not that likely to infect people if you're unvaccinated. If you were vaccinated, you would have cleared the infection already. And in vaccinated people even that infectious phase is lower.

Straw 5y ago

All the data suggests that vaccines significantly reduce transmission, both by decreasing the likelihood of infection and onward transmission from vaccinated individuals. Additionally, anything that incentivizes more people to get the vaccine will result in higher uptake, which benefits everyone in terms of lower overall spread and hospital usage.

mapme 5y ago
Exactly, the attack rate of vaccinated individuals who are infected is significantly lower.
13years 5y ago
All the current data suggests something very different. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/08/06/fully-vaccinated-may-transmit-delta-just-as-easily-and-new-variant-shows-signs-of-vaccine-evasion-early-uk-research-suggests/?sh=5124b8e71ac5 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/08/06/fully-v...
- Straw 5y ago
  I can't find any source in there suggesting a lack of effectiveness. The underlying source linked by the article mentions a reduction of 80% in symptomatic disease, which is responsible for most transmission. I can't find anything very recent, but here's an analysis that takes Delta into account: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1001169/S1301_SPI-M-O_Summary_Roadmap_second_Step_4.2__1_.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2UWZ6fhhJHGWNN4vq5NeuIX91DhhV6RXycOJhDtSUoPPRLv0F3dnGrG8E https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... Finding 80+% protection against symptomatic disease and ~40% reduction in onwards transmission, from three different modelling groups.
  - 13years 5y ago
    Those estimates are based on modelling with assumptions to fill in missing information. Significant is the assumption of little waning immunity. Current data trends don't look so optimistic. https://dailysceptic.org/2021/08/22/latest-phe-data-shows-vaccine-effectiveness-down-to-just-15-in-the-over-50s-37-in-the-under-50s-deaths-cut-by-80-in-over-50s-but-just-12-in-under-50s/ https://dailysceptic.org/2021/08/22/latest-phe-data-shows-va...

javagram 5y ago

> If you're vaccinated, you can still get and transmit covid. You just don't get as sick. The vaccine protects you. The vaccine reduces the chance you can get and transmit covid. 40-60% protection against infection, and even when there is a breakthrough case viral load declines faster than in an unvaccinated person meaning less chance and time to spread the virus to others. > So why these vaccine mandates? Vaccine passports? Etc. Because people simply enjoy the act of getting to tell others what to do. Anybody who has ever interacted with an HOA will be familiar with this. No, it’s because lots of people are literally dying. An HOA arguing with you over the color of your garage door or the height of your lawn is, at most, trying to protect property values or as you say just being a busybody.

SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago

> If you're vaccinated, you can still get and transmit covid. I can win the lottery, but I probably won't. Don't think of it as black or white, binary, can/can't. Unless you talk about the probability of getting and transmitting COVID, and how vaccination reduces these, you will be making nonsensical statements like the one above.

htkgigktmrnnr 5y ago

> The graph here you are looking for is the one that shows the percentage of staffed beds and icu beds occupied. Notice that it is entirely flat. So why did hospitals declare that they have no ICU beds available and that they are sending patients out of state? > At least 53 Texas hospitals have no available ICU capacity, according to numbers reported to the federal government during the week ending Aug. 5. In Austin, five hospitals were at or above 90% of their ICU capacity during the same period, with two reporting no available ICU beds https://www.texastribune.org/2021/08/10/coronavirus-texas-hospitals-icu-beds/ https://www.texastribune.org/2021/08/10/coronavirus-texas-ho...

chana_masala 5y ago
It could be related to staff shortages. Number of beds is not a literal figure, it also accounts for the number of staff that can treat patients in the bed. If you're short staffed you're short bed'd too
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  That still contraticts the sentence he quoted.
thepasswordis 5y ago
I don’t know. But what I do know is that data will speak much more clearly than somebody’s news article. Those hospitals at 90%: what is their base load? The hospitals with no beds: what is their base load? These things make very profitable news articles, but they don’t do a very good job of informing.
- htkgigktmrnnr 5y ago
  The news article is literally quoting hospitals saying they are out of ICU beds. But you trust a dashboard more...

toast0 5y ago

> The graph here you are looking for is the one that shows the percentage of staffed beds and icu beds occupied. Notice that it is entirely flat. Compare June to September, total staffed beds is about even, total ICU beds grew somewhat, and usage of both jumped from about 80% to 88% for overall beds, and 90ish to 96% for ICUs (which is a bigger increase in use than it might seem because capacity increased) If overall use increased 10% and covid users are 20% of overall and 40% of ICU, up from maybe 5% and 10%, it seems there are a lot of non-covid users whose care is being delayed or denied because of covid. There's some room for misleading statistical information, such as ICU patients in for something else that happen to have asymptomatic covid and are only tested because of other patients, but the difference in stats seems large enough to ignore that. Stats I've heard are that the vast majority of hospitalized covid patients in most states had not been vacinated, so it does seem useful to the person taking them, and by reducing the overall hospitalization rate, seem to have kept Texas within hospital capacity, if barely (I haven't heard stories of Texas hospitals running triage and tents in parking garage like some other states)

stjohnswarts 5y ago

You are 100% wrong. The purpose of mandating the vaccine is to keep people from dying, particularly older, immune compromised people and kids who can't get the vaccine just yet. I'm tired of this damn limbo of somewhere in the middle. If you don't want to get a vaccine then don't work for one of the employers that will now be required to make sure their workers are immunized. Your rights end at the end of your nose. No one is going to come looking for you to drag you out to the street and get immunized. However if you want to participate with the rest of us then get vaccinated. Texas is currently a shit show of overcrowded hospitals, voter suppression laws, and pro-birther (but not pro life) people trying to install their theocracy. I know because I live here.

34523trefds12 5y ago
Unfortunately you are also 100% wrong. For example, a care home in London recently held a trip, all individuals in attendance were 'double jabbed', and were required to bring a negative PCR test. The attendees were not allowed to board the coach if they did not bring a negative PCR test. Attendees also had their temperatures taken before bording the coach and were also asked about how they felt, and encouraged not to come should they even feel like they have any symptom/s. The next day, a member of staff tests positive. Simply being double jabbed isn't a solution, because the vaccine, fundamentally, doesn't work the way you think. Whilst a jab may remove some affects of Covid, it does not stop transmission; Covid can and will be passed from those who are vaccinated to vulnerable people regardless. This results in a quandry where advocating for proof of a negative test can not actually be proof of a negative test, and being double jabbed does not stop an individual from catching Covid and stopping them from suffering. Forcing people to be jabbed is unethical; boys have been reported to be 6x more likely to suffer vaccine-related myocarditis than ending up in hospital with Covid. What groups are deemed more precious? Are our young boys worth sacrificing, or should we sacrifice those who's age is greater than the average age of death? Excluding people from society because they are not willing to take a drug which is still experimental; The CDC may have approved it, but in the UK has not its approval is temporary and that lasts one year:(https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4759 https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4759). It also quite frightening to hear power hungry individuals advocating agency over anothers body; I find your comment regarding Texas ironic given the current abortion issues present, but perhaps you agree with that removal as well. When rights are removed, they do not come back. we still remove our shoes when travelling through airport security. It is important that we consider the our actions and implications for the long term, not just the current political cycle.

perlgeek 5y ago

> If you're vaccinated, you can still get and transmit covid. You just don't get as sick. The vaccine protects you. While you still can transmit COVID-19 if you're vaccinated against it, it's far less likely (the time during which you can transmit the disease is far shorter). So while your statement might be technically correct, it is also very misleading. > In fact, there is an argument for how over-vaccinating will be harmful to the unvaccinated. What is over-vaccinating (and in a pandemic, no less)? And what is that argument you speak of?

dragonwriter 5y ago

> If you're vaccinated, you can still get and transmit covid. If you are vaccinated you are less likely to get COVID, less likely to spread it at peak (except, apparently, with Delta) while you have it, and have a shorter contagious period (even with Delta). So, yes, you can still get and spread it, but you are significantly less likely to.