6 ms·
The same brand of ‘successes’ can be achieved by banning alcohol, tobacco, fast food or whatever vice you want.
by tinus_hn 5y ago
The same brand of ‘successes’ can be achieved by banning alcohol, tobacco, fast food or whatever vice you want.
- Aeolun 5y agoI’m not sure if I would consider the vice of drinking alcohol quite the same as the vice of infecting and potentially killing other people.
- Ekaros 5y agoI think alcohol might be even more dangerous to others than being unvaccinated. Violent drug users are well known ending up in fights and even causing death or permanent damage when they attack randomly at others during night. Or even kill them sometimes. So I think we should apply the new standard to it and ban it totally.
- nobodyandproud 5y agoAnd we have laws to hold people accountable when under the influence, they do something bad and affect someone else. That’s a fantastic idea: Start holding the unvaccinated criminally responsible, if they’re the likely point of infection for someone else. Thanks for the idea.
- Ekaros 5y agoWhy not apply that to also vaccinated people?
- mcny 5y agoYou will go to jail for repeatedly driving drunk even if you never have an accident. Do you also want prison time for unvaccinated people who repeatedly go out in public? I support you if you do.
- Ekaros 5y agoNo, but clearly many people do. I don't think we should make distinction if person spreading virus was vaccinated or not if we start to punish for that. That should not affect the punishment or how guilty person is. I see absolutely no reason why being vaccinated should protect you from criminal charges in case we start to charge for spreading covid. The person is as guilty without or with vaccine. They should have gone be tested or taken actions to not spread it.
- mcny 5y agoThank you for your reply. My question was because I got a ticket for having an open container in the back seat of the car while I was stranded on the side of the road. They did the breathalyzer several times on me, zero each time. I didn't have a drop to drink. I didn't cause an accident. I was not driving recklessly. In fact, I was stopped on the shoulder. If I have to pay almost five hundred dollars in fines and court fees even though I didn't do anything other than drive a friend's car home, I don't see why people who refuse to take the vaccine for no reason shouldn't have to pay even if we don't have any proven incidence they spread the disease. Point is, our legal system is very inconsistent and you can't scare me with the slippery slope like today covid vaccine and tomorrow I am in legal trouble for a second serving of fries.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- angelzen 5y agoVaccinated people also spread covid. The #1 population-level defense against infection disease is self-isolation on symptoms onset. It is possible that vaccinated people spread covid more aggressively than unvaccinated, because the vaccines dull the symptoms to a point where they don't trigger the 'stay at home' signal anymore.
- nobodyandproud 5y agoThat’s like saying sober drivers can cause accidents. It’s the likelihood, and willful the personal choice that leads to a higher of incident which society decides whether or not to tolerate.
- ghoward 5y agoWe also hold sober drivers accountable when they cause accidents. Why not vaccinated people when they spread the virus?
- nobodyandproud 5y agoOnly when they do something reckless, like look at their cellphones or sleep on rhe wheel. Or speed or blow a red light. Otherwise it’s civil penalties at most
- ghoward 5y agoSo staying unvaccinated counts as reckless now?
- nobodyandproud 5y agoAre you saying that it’s a responsible decision, one that won’t have consequences for people who cannot get vaccinated?
- ghoward 5y ago
- tinus_hn 5y agoIf vaccinated people can spread the virus, which they can, going to a bar they can also infect and ‘kill’ people. So yes, it’s pretty much the same.
- dgellow 5y agoYou’re clearly trolling here. The virus is an invisible agent spreading exponentially throughout society, putting the health system under a massive stress. That’s of course not what smoking, drinking, or over-eating is about…
- tinus_hn 5y agoNo, these only put the health system under stress that we are used to. Remember that story about that guy in Mississippi who had trouble finding an ICU bed? If you look at the real data it turns out the vast majority of these beds are not in use by people with covid, but by people with other problems, like heart diseases. You know, the problems caused by that lifestyle that’s a-ok because we’re used to the problems it causes.
- ceesharp 5y agoThe difference is that in a very short period of time, numerous people can end up with the virus. The diseases you listed are distributed over the year. You don't see thousands of people getting a heart attack in a week in the same area. COVID puts the healthcare system at risk because it is a sudden surge of cases which ends up being overwhelming.
- tinus_hn 5y agoWhat is the difference with ‘we’re used to it’? The things you describe also apply to the flu, yet no one would consider requiring vaccination cards for that. It just turns out there already are beds for people that get that because we are used to it.
- 5y ago
- throwaway316943 5y agoEvery day 28 people die in the US from drunk driving crashes https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving 261 per day from excessive alcohol use https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/features/excessive-alcohol-deaths.html https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/features/excessive-alcohol-death... Alcohol consumption directly affects people who do not consume it in a multitude of ways from the monetary cost of increased demand on the health care system, police, prisons and damage to public property to the emotional and psychological burden of interacting with the inebriated or dependent to the physical impact of abuse and accidents caused by intoxication.
- UncleMeat 5y agoDrunk driving is very illegal. If we could identify unvaccinated people who infected others and punish that with jail time, would you be happy about that?
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 5y agoWould you also jail the folks ho were vaccinated but still infected others?
- UncleMeat 5y agoNo. I don't even have a strong opinion about punishing people for infecting others through negligence. But I think it is worth bringing up whenever anti-vaxxers bring up alcohol and drunk driving.
- throwaway316943 5y agoTo be clear, I am not opposed to vaccines. I think the current vaccine is the best option for people at high risk of negative outcomes due to COVID. What I am opposed to is coercion by the state on something that is a personal choice. Calling this argument “antivaxx” is another example of the disingenuous way people are behaving. It’s a smear campaign that is being parroted without any critical thought.
- throwaway316943 5y agoThose who are downvoting this are being blatantly disingenuous. Tobacco alone kills over 480,000 people per year in the US. There is a very strong case for banning it if your fundamental concern is the health of others and the upkeep of the health system. https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/heal... Alcohol kills another 95,000 per year in the US https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/features/excessive-alcohol-deaths.html https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/features/excessive-alcohol-death... Obesity related deaths are around 300,000 per year. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/192032 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/192032 No one can honestly look at these figures and come away with with the opinion that we need to protect the unvaccinated from themselves through mandates while turning a blind eye to these other self inflicted diseases. Argue for or against limiting personal choice to preserve health but be prepared to defend your position on all of these fronts.
- amanaplanacanal 5y agoLet's start with the simplest: tobacco. There is no way to make it disappear, you can only make it illegal. Our experiments with making other addictive drugs illegal had been a complete failure, I doubt you could even find convincing research that shows that making them illegal has led to less deaths due to them. Whereas vaccine passports appear to actually work. That is a major difference.
- kuraudo 5y agoI take issue with this comparison: just because the prior 'experiments' have been failures does not mean that future efforts which utilize entirely different methods will be. The war on drugs was already highly criticized for its ineffectiveness on several accounts: there is definitely a way to eradicate the problem, but those were not it and even people at the time knew it.
- amanaplanacanal 5y agoWhat methods would you suggest? My parent said "ban tobacco".
- sofixa 5y agoWhich is why, in absolutely the same vein, there are regulations to incite people to consume less of those things - e.g. little branding, serious warnings and graphic pictures of the long term damage on tobacco packaging; a ban on advertisement for tobacco products; serious warnings and limitations on the advertisements for alcohol products; warnings/good advice on food-related advertisements, etc. etc. And all of those, including the vaccination passports, work and achieve their goals.
- ghoward 5y agoWhy do we accept mere warnings and labels on everything else, but vaccines are supposed to be mandated? That's a double standard and hypocritical. Let governments keep advertising and let people make their own decisions.