8 ms·

I think the hardest thing remote work has to replicate is just random small talk between smart people that can lead to great ideas. This speech from Richard Ham

I think the hardest thing remote work has to replicate is just random small talk between smart people that can lead to great ideas. This speech from Richard Hamming about Bell Labs sticks in my mind, especially the segment about open vs closed office doors. I'd say remote work is objectively better for pure productivity in terms of getting things done, but you run the risk of limiting innovation I think https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/YouAndYourResearch.html https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/YouAndYourResearch.html >Another trait, it took me a while to notice. I noticed the following facts about people who work with the door open or the door closed. I notice that if you have the door to your office closed, you get more work done today and tomorrow, and you are more productive than most. But 10 years later somehow you don't know quite know what problems are worth working on; all the hard work you do is sort of tangential in importance. He who works with the door open gets all kinds of interruptions, but he also occasionally gets clues as to what the world is and what might be important. Now I cannot prove the cause and effect sequence because you might say, ``The closed door is symbolic of a closed mind.'' I don't know. But I can say there is a pretty good correlation between those who work with the doors open and those who ultimately do important things, although people who work with doors closed often work harder. Somehow they seem to work on slightly the wrong thing - not much, but enough that they miss fame.

midasuni 5y ago
> But 10 years later somehow you don't know quite know what problems are worth working on It seems normal mow to move job every 3 years so that’s not a concern
- ghaff 5y ago
  That’s a very Silicon Valley tech influenced meme.
  - sillysaurusx 5y ago
    Not really. I see that pattern across the entire software landscape, from big companies down to startups. It's true that there are occasionally people who stay put for 17 years at Microsoft, but those seem to be the exception rather than the norm.
  - logosmonkey 5y ago
    I don't believe so. It's the only way to get a proper pay increase in corporate America. Internal promotion in most corporations comes with at best a 10% pay increase most of the time and includes increased workload. If I leave my company and go to another I can pretty easily get 15-20% increase and stay in the same basic job I'm currently at. Most companies don't offer any benefits that increase based on loyalty so I don't know why any would expect someone to stay long term.
    - ghaff 5y ago
      Outside of startups, most of which fail anyway, I think you’ll find a lot more stay in the 5-10+ year range than you give credit for. Certainly 20+ is unusual these days. I’ve had multiple 10ish year jobs and don’t expect to hit that number.
    - danjac 5y ago
      Moving jobs entails significant risk, which is one reason why offers are high. Maybe you won't get on with your new manager or team-mates. Maybe the codebase is a tech-debt spaghetti nightmare. You can't carry over the reputation and clout you had built up in your old job and you have to prove yourself all over again, and you have less say in how things are done. Sure the interview process should surface these problems, but applicants can make a "bad hire" as easily as companies, especially as both are showing their best front, and this is more likely if you are enticed by a fatter paycheck.
      - sgt101 5y ago
        >Moving jobs entails significant risk. Yes - but so does not moving jobs. I have several friends who played the big company game, got to a senior level and then got ditched. Their problem? Well - they got shafted and emptied out at peak expense time; mortgage, kids, divorces etc, they got emptied when they were still 15 years short of thier retirement target, and their CV's are mono-corporate. This made finding work very challenging. In olden days you could say confidently that if you got to director level in a big company in the UK you were set. There was a job for life at a very nice salary if you wanted it.
  - taneq 5y ago
    It’s true across most industries in Australia. The old social contract of employment, “work for us your whole career and we’ll look after you your whole career”, disintegrated in the 90s when companies started treating all employees as disposable. Now it’s everyone for themselves and loyalty between employees and employers is a shadow of what it was.
- Swizec 5y ago
  This too is a type of open door. You see more breadth and talk to more people by regularly changing employers. It enables you to move towards problems worth working on.
Salgat 5y ago
>random small talk between smart people that can lead to great ideas. Outside of maybe a very innovative R&D department I don't really see these "brilliant ideas that only smalltalk could achieve" in your typical run of the mill company.
- ren_engineer 5y ago
  doesn't have to be ground breaking research, could just be ideas for product iteration or for an employees own side project. Benefits individuals more than the company really
  - jokethrowaway 5y ago
    The way this benefits the company is that individuals are happy and create relationships with coworkers making work more enjoyable and making it harder to quit. Companies wants you to feel like a family so you'll stay for a lower salary or so you'll accept more grueling conditions. Knowing this, from a company perspective, remote can work if individuals have a way to create relationships. In my experience, some people bond over work but most bond by spending time with each other doing friendly activities which are not work related. An in-person party or a holiday is the best option but some online gaming is a decent substitute in these authoritarian times. Some people swear by virtual coffees rotations that randomly match people but I had a couple of good ones and dozens of cringy/weird. None of them ended up being positive for creating relationships, at best it was useful for knowing who is who.
    - xeromal 5y ago
      Gaming definitely helps. I've been playing through the Halo campaigns with a couple of my coworkers and it's been great.
    - wanderingmind 5y ago
      "Companies wants you to feel like a family"> I strongly recommend everyone to browse through blind once a few weeks to dispel any such notion.
Socketier 5y ago
Maybe if Microsoft would make an MS teams feature that would operate more like discord then that random smalltalk would happen.
- mianos 5y ago
  Behind this is one of the problems. In a corporate environment you can't choose the best tool for the job at hand, collaboration. MS Teams is probably the worst tool of its class in this area yet it is, evidently, chosen by people in higher positions who make decisions based solely on their opinion and for the sake of complying with corporate standards, once again, not based on evidence, but, by some MS white paper saying it is. That said I am not sure they should be spending time on more functional over getting the very basics, like video chat, working as well as almost every other platform. Just my personal opinion on what complete garbage it is when you have to use it every day of the week.
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    If even that much thought was given to it. Teams comes with Office, so it is quite possible that alternatives were never really examined.
    - mianos 5y ago
      Yes, I agree. Even worse. Other not considered at all, but 'because we use office'. At my last job that was the reason.
    - julianh95 5y ago
      This is my experience. I've witnessed a company migrate to MS Teams given that it was included in their existing subscription. That alone was enough to kick-off a migration from Slack.
  - wenc 5y ago
    > MS Teams is probably the worst tool of its class in this area yet it is, evidently, chosen by people in higher positions who make decisions based solely on their opinion and for the sake of complying with corporate standards, once again, not based on evidence, but, by some MS white paper saying it is. Could you expand more about why you think it's the worst tool in its class for collaboration? My experiences with it seem to be at variance with this observation.
pdimitar 5y ago
Most companies are not graciously funded laboratories so to me the argument for "let smart people chat randomly" is moot. Those companies have plenty of creativity-killing processes that make sure people never looked beyond what they have to do today and maybe tomorrow.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  Or just the reality that most employees don’t have a big picture creative role. I suspect most developers don’t really have a meaningful hand in shaping what they work on.
  - pdimitar 5y ago
    Yes, and that's by design. We are very often constrained from the start.
steverb 5y ago
> But 10 years later somehow you don't know quite know what problems are worth working on This assumes the company will be around in 10 years and that I am still working there.
- HarryHirsch 5y ago
  How can anyone get any relevant work done in that environment?
jpindar 5y ago
When I engage in random small talk between smart people that can lead to great ideas, it's usually on Discord.
- datameta 5y ago
  Are there any public servers on topic you enjoy that you'd recommend?
  - loopz 5y ago
    You're better off browsing what interests you personally. If you come by a great group of people or person, it'll happen by chance, and will be fueled by your personal interests.
heavyset_go 5y ago
> I think the hardest thing remote work has to replicate is just random small talk between smart people that can lead to great ideas. Some of the world's most used and innovative software was crafted by smart people all over the world whose small talk was mediated almost entirely over email, BBS, IRC etc. This continues to be the case, it's just the mediums have changed slightly, while they're still mostly text-based, there's also the multimedia-based methods thanks to things like ubiquitous video, voice and conference calling.
- TheCraiggers 5y ago
  > Some of the world's most used and innovative software was crafted by smart people all over the world whose small talk was mediated almost entirely over email, BBS, IRC etc. At what speed though? You're obviously correct that such small talk can and does happen over asynchronous communication protocols. But I would imagine it's far slower than doodling on a napkin with a colleague during break. Businesses are going to desire something faster. So far, nothing has beaten a simple phone call in my (admittedly limited) remote work experience.
  - pracer 5y ago
    > But I would imagine it's far slower than doodling on a napkin with a colleague during break. I think you overestimate how much relevant these napkin innovation situations are. Talking with some coworker and drawing something over a napkin doesn't mean the idea will be revolutionary at all. Or even useful. It is most of the times, a romantic image that make people feel like the smart innovator they would like to be.

midasuni 5y ago

> But 10 years later somehow you don't know quite know what problems are worth working on It seems normal mow to move job every 3 years so that’s not a concern

ghaff 5y ago
That’s a very Silicon Valley tech influenced meme.
- sillysaurusx 5y ago
  Not really. I see that pattern across the entire software landscape, from big companies down to startups. It's true that there are occasionally people who stay put for 17 years at Microsoft, but those seem to be the exception rather than the norm.
- logosmonkey 5y ago
  I don't believe so. It's the only way to get a proper pay increase in corporate America. Internal promotion in most corporations comes with at best a 10% pay increase most of the time and includes increased workload. If I leave my company and go to another I can pretty easily get 15-20% increase and stay in the same basic job I'm currently at. Most companies don't offer any benefits that increase based on loyalty so I don't know why any would expect someone to stay long term.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    Outside of startups, most of which fail anyway, I think you’ll find a lot more stay in the 5-10+ year range than you give credit for. Certainly 20+ is unusual these days. I’ve had multiple 10ish year jobs and don’t expect to hit that number.
  - danjac 5y ago
    Moving jobs entails significant risk, which is one reason why offers are high. Maybe you won't get on with your new manager or team-mates. Maybe the codebase is a tech-debt spaghetti nightmare. You can't carry over the reputation and clout you had built up in your old job and you have to prove yourself all over again, and you have less say in how things are done. Sure the interview process should surface these problems, but applicants can make a "bad hire" as easily as companies, especially as both are showing their best front, and this is more likely if you are enticed by a fatter paycheck.
    - sgt101 5y ago
      >Moving jobs entails significant risk. Yes - but so does not moving jobs. I have several friends who played the big company game, got to a senior level and then got ditched. Their problem? Well - they got shafted and emptied out at peak expense time; mortgage, kids, divorces etc, they got emptied when they were still 15 years short of thier retirement target, and their CV's are mono-corporate. This made finding work very challenging. In olden days you could say confidently that if you got to director level in a big company in the UK you were set. There was a job for life at a very nice salary if you wanted it.
- taneq 5y ago
  It’s true across most industries in Australia. The old social contract of employment, “work for us your whole career and we’ll look after you your whole career”, disintegrated in the 90s when companies started treating all employees as disposable. Now it’s everyone for themselves and loyalty between employees and employers is a shadow of what it was.
Swizec 5y ago
This too is a type of open door. You see more breadth and talk to more people by regularly changing employers. It enables you to move towards problems worth working on.

Salgat 5y ago

>random small talk between smart people that can lead to great ideas. Outside of maybe a very innovative R&D department I don't really see these "brilliant ideas that only smalltalk could achieve" in your typical run of the mill company.

ren_engineer 5y ago
doesn't have to be ground breaking research, could just be ideas for product iteration or for an employees own side project. Benefits individuals more than the company really
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  The way this benefits the company is that individuals are happy and create relationships with coworkers making work more enjoyable and making it harder to quit. Companies wants you to feel like a family so you'll stay for a lower salary or so you'll accept more grueling conditions. Knowing this, from a company perspective, remote can work if individuals have a way to create relationships. In my experience, some people bond over work but most bond by spending time with each other doing friendly activities which are not work related. An in-person party or a holiday is the best option but some online gaming is a decent substitute in these authoritarian times. Some people swear by virtual coffees rotations that randomly match people but I had a couple of good ones and dozens of cringy/weird. None of them ended up being positive for creating relationships, at best it was useful for knowing who is who.
  - xeromal 5y ago
    Gaming definitely helps. I've been playing through the Halo campaigns with a couple of my coworkers and it's been great.
  - wanderingmind 5y ago
    "Companies wants you to feel like a family"> I strongly recommend everyone to browse through blind once a few weeks to dispel any such notion.

Socketier 5y ago

Maybe if Microsoft would make an MS teams feature that would operate more like discord then that random smalltalk would happen.

mianos 5y ago
Behind this is one of the problems. In a corporate environment you can't choose the best tool for the job at hand, collaboration. MS Teams is probably the worst tool of its class in this area yet it is, evidently, chosen by people in higher positions who make decisions based solely on their opinion and for the sake of complying with corporate standards, once again, not based on evidence, but, by some MS white paper saying it is. That said I am not sure they should be spending time on more functional over getting the very basics, like video chat, working as well as almost every other platform. Just my personal opinion on what complete garbage it is when you have to use it every day of the week.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  If even that much thought was given to it. Teams comes with Office, so it is quite possible that alternatives were never really examined.
  - mianos 5y ago
    Yes, I agree. Even worse. Other not considered at all, but 'because we use office'. At my last job that was the reason.
  - julianh95 5y ago
    This is my experience. I've witnessed a company migrate to MS Teams given that it was included in their existing subscription. That alone was enough to kick-off a migration from Slack.
- wenc 5y ago
  > MS Teams is probably the worst tool of its class in this area yet it is, evidently, chosen by people in higher positions who make decisions based solely on their opinion and for the sake of complying with corporate standards, once again, not based on evidence, but, by some MS white paper saying it is. Could you expand more about why you think it's the worst tool in its class for collaboration? My experiences with it seem to be at variance with this observation.

pdimitar 5y ago

Most companies are not graciously funded laboratories so to me the argument for "let smart people chat randomly" is moot. Those companies have plenty of creativity-killing processes that make sure people never looked beyond what they have to do today and maybe tomorrow.

MattGaiser 5y ago
Or just the reality that most employees don’t have a big picture creative role. I suspect most developers don’t really have a meaningful hand in shaping what they work on.
- pdimitar 5y ago
  Yes, and that's by design. We are very often constrained from the start.

steverb 5y ago

> But 10 years later somehow you don't know quite know what problems are worth working on This assumes the company will be around in 10 years and that I am still working there.

HarryHirsch 5y ago
How can anyone get any relevant work done in that environment?

jpindar 5y ago

When I engage in random small talk between smart people that can lead to great ideas, it's usually on Discord.

datameta 5y ago
Are there any public servers on topic you enjoy that you'd recommend?
- loopz 5y ago
  You're better off browsing what interests you personally. If you come by a great group of people or person, it'll happen by chance, and will be fueled by your personal interests.

heavyset_go 5y ago

> I think the hardest thing remote work has to replicate is just random small talk between smart people that can lead to great ideas. Some of the world's most used and innovative software was crafted by smart people all over the world whose small talk was mediated almost entirely over email, BBS, IRC etc. This continues to be the case, it's just the mediums have changed slightly, while they're still mostly text-based, there's also the multimedia-based methods thanks to things like ubiquitous video, voice and conference calling.

TheCraiggers 5y ago
> Some of the world's most used and innovative software was crafted by smart people all over the world whose small talk was mediated almost entirely over email, BBS, IRC etc. At what speed though? You're obviously correct that such small talk can and does happen over asynchronous communication protocols. But I would imagine it's far slower than doodling on a napkin with a colleague during break. Businesses are going to desire something faster. So far, nothing has beaten a simple phone call in my (admittedly limited) remote work experience.
- pracer 5y ago
  > But I would imagine it's far slower than doodling on a napkin with a colleague during break. I think you overestimate how much relevant these napkin innovation situations are. Talking with some coworker and drawing something over a napkin doesn't mean the idea will be revolutionary at all. Or even useful. It is most of the times, a romantic image that make people feel like the smart innovator they would like to be.