7 ms·

A healthcare professional who may already have antibodies from prior infection, and who therefore does not need a vaccine, perhaps.

lallysingh 5y ago
Is that situation well studied for it's risk profile?
- pdimitar 5y ago
  So you are wondering if Covid might be the one and only virus in history where antibodies don't work?
  - stan_rogers 5y ago
    How many colds have you had?
    - pdimitar 5y ago
      Cold only very rarely kills babies. If we're going to do analogies then let's go all the way. Here on HN there was an article about how people who got through Covid were much more resistant to catching it again, compared to those who got a vaccine. It's almost as if their immune systems actually work! I despair for the people who got surprised by this, as if our immune systems became a thing only during the last 2 years. And this forum is supposed to be full of educated people. All this virtue signaling around having to take experimental vaccines is becoming very tiring.
      - msinca 5y ago
        What is tiring is the insistence of folks like you completely ignoring the 650,000 deaths in the US alone. Deaths that are climbing to a rate not seen since the spike last winter yet and this recent surge could have been avoided if this vocal misinformed anti-vax minority would have protected themselves, their loved ones, and their community with a jab. So yes, the rest of us are pretty tired of the virtue signaling but not the one you think you are calling out... Ask your immune system how well it would have done vs Smallpox Diphtheria Hepatitis A&B Meningitis Measles Mumps Polio Pneumonia Rotavirus Rubella Tetanus Whooping Cough
        pdimitar 5y ago
        That sensationalism, my friend, is why the world is divided. People keep screaming about climbing deaths but I am still not seeing it anywhere around me. At the entrance of the mall, everybody just sighs annoyed and puts on their mask, that's all that I observe and that's all that most of the populace observes as well. I have seen barely any disruption except, of course, some local businesses closing down forever. The normal folk just kept going. That's the problem with this pandemic: it became a religious war above anything else. Everyone just chose to believe a camp and went on to happily scream at the "other team" afterwards. We need an actually informed and neutral party on these matters. A lot of the agents of this system have a vested economical interest for the lockdowns to continue -- and for people to get subjected multiple times to an experimental vaccine. I got through Covid twice -- before the news even broke out (Dec 2019 and Jan 2020). And I wore a mask ever since and still do. But I have some heart problems and reading the same sources that you do -- about how almost healthy people died in a lot of pain after taking the vaccine -- I think I'll wait for a little bit, thank you very much. I am not endangering anyone and I am tired of hearing that I do. No. I really don't endanger anyone. I just don't want to be an experimental lab rat and hold on to my life for a while longer. Same goes for many others. (And btw calling people anti-vax is super flamey. This is not what's happening here at all.)
        caeril 5y ago
        What is tiring is the insistence of folks like you completely ignoring that fully 94% of those deaths came with comorbidities, far and away dominated by 1. Old age, and 2. Obesity. We've already vaccinated nearly 90% of group #1, and continuing to gain ground. We've heard nothing but crickets about group #2. Why? I don't know. Maybe letting people die of hypoxia is better than hurting their feelings. What I do know is that "folks like you" have absolutely no interest in actually solving problems or saving lives, because if you were, you'd actually look at the god damned reality of who is dying once in a while.
    - nradov 5y ago
      The common cold is caused by dozens of different viruses (including at least 4 coronaviruses). Gaining immunity to one of those cold viruses doesn't do much to protect against the others. https://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/cold-guide/common_cold_causes https://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/cold-guide/common_cold_ca...
kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
Healthcare workers routinely work under flu vaccine mandates even though they may already have effective antibodies.
jackson1442 5y ago
I’ve heard that many (most?) hospitals require that staff either wears a mask or gets the flu shot every year. Do these hospitals waive that requirement for people if they come down with the flu?
- pengaru 5y ago
  Influenza is special when it comes to mutations, so I wouldn't expect them to waive the flu vaccinations but I also don't think it directly relates to sars-cov2.
- organsnyder 5y ago
  My previous employer was a healthcare system. Despite my role as a software developer working in an office nowhere near patients, I was required to get the flu vaccine (which was fine with me). These sorts of mandates are nothing new for healthcare workers.
- logosmonkey 5y ago
  Yup, the healthcare system I work for requires Flu vax for everyone. Including back office folks like me. They have for years now.
msinca 5y ago
So, somebody who has little to no understanding of COVID, its ability to reinfect, the higher contagiousness of Delta variant, and thinks their Facebook feed has better scientific knowledge than experts in the field? Got it.
phren0logy 5y ago
There doesn’t seem to be any problem with vaccination after infection. It’s unclear if that actually translates into better outcomes, but it’s likely. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/09/07/1033677208/new-studies-find-evidence-of-superhuman-immunity-to-covid-19-in-some-individuals https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/09/07/1033677...
- q1w2 5y ago
  I feel like if they tested positive for covid-19 antibodies, that might be a valid exemption - because it's a bit much to require vaccinations for them if we still don't even know that it makes much difference.
  - op00to 5y ago
    How many antibodies are needed? What level? What is the peer reviewed lower limit of antibodies to be safe? Oh? You don’t know? Well then.
    - q1w2 5y ago
      Exactly, it's NOT known. ...which is why it's not ethical to require their vaccination in order to work when the benefit to their patients is unknown. The burden of proof should be on the agency forcing vaccinations upon people to work.
      - op00to 5y ago
        But we DO know that vaccines prevent severe illness.
otikik 5y ago
"Perhaps does not need the vaccine", even if debatable, is still less good than "is vaccinated".
drfuchs 5y ago
From the CDC: "Yes, you should be vaccinated regardless of whether you already had COVID-19 because: * Research has not yet shown how long you are protected from getting COVID-19 again after you recover from COVID-19. * Vaccination helps protect you even if you’ve already had COVID-19. Evidence is emerging that people get better protection by being fully vaccinated compared with having had COVID-19. One study showed that unvaccinated people who already had COVID-19 are more than 2 times as likely than fully vaccinated people to get COVID-19 again." https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html
- ghoward 5y ago
  There are so many confounding variables that they can't make that statement without sounding like they're selling something. Does it matter when people were infected? Does it matter if you got the shot after being infected? Hint: it probably does because you probably have more antibodies right after getting the shot. In fact, they should do a study of uninfected vaccinated people who get infected. Do they have higher antibody counts after getting infected? They probably would. Does that mean that every vaccinated person should get infected too?
- q1w2 5y ago
  Right, but those CDC statements make it clear that the CDC is guessing and asking people to get vaccinated - not knowing if it's helpful or not.
  - op00to 5y ago
    You are wrong. We know Covid vaccination is helpful and saves lives.
- eplanit 5y ago
  To be fair, that's the same CDC that only 5 months ago was saying getting vaccinated meant "getting back to normal" -- no masks, distancing rules, etc. Their reputation as being authoritative on this topic is understandably tarnished.
foogazi 5y ago
That’s just covid - what about all the other diseases like polio, tb, pertussis, chicken pox… Would you expect healthcare workers to be vaccinated against those ? Or should they wait to get the natural antibodies?
- op00to 5y ago
  Polio: no, across the world there are less than 100 cases a year. TB: we require teachers to take a TB test, why not health care? Pertussis: yes, that’s part of the TdAP vaccine and I was required to get that as an employee of a health system. Chicken pox: usually most people have antibodies for this either from vaccination or illness.
q1w2 5y ago
In these cases though, they have not. It would be a better argument to say that they've tested positive for covid-19 antibodies - but that's not what's going on here. They're just anti-vax.

lallysingh 5y ago

Is that situation well studied for it's risk profile?

pdimitar 5y ago
So you are wondering if Covid might be the one and only virus in history where antibodies don't work?
- stan_rogers 5y ago
  How many colds have you had?
  - pdimitar 5y ago
    Cold only very rarely kills babies. If we're going to do analogies then let's go all the way. Here on HN there was an article about how people who got through Covid were much more resistant to catching it again, compared to those who got a vaccine. It's almost as if their immune systems actually work! I despair for the people who got surprised by this, as if our immune systems became a thing only during the last 2 years. And this forum is supposed to be full of educated people. All this virtue signaling around having to take experimental vaccines is becoming very tiring.
    - msinca 5y ago
      What is tiring is the insistence of folks like you completely ignoring the 650,000 deaths in the US alone. Deaths that are climbing to a rate not seen since the spike last winter yet and this recent surge could have been avoided if this vocal misinformed anti-vax minority would have protected themselves, their loved ones, and their community with a jab. So yes, the rest of us are pretty tired of the virtue signaling but not the one you think you are calling out... Ask your immune system how well it would have done vs Smallpox Diphtheria Hepatitis A&B Meningitis Measles Mumps Polio Pneumonia Rotavirus Rubella Tetanus Whooping Cough
      - pdimitar 5y ago
        That sensationalism, my friend, is why the world is divided. People keep screaming about climbing deaths but I am still not seeing it anywhere around me. At the entrance of the mall, everybody just sighs annoyed and puts on their mask, that's all that I observe and that's all that most of the populace observes as well. I have seen barely any disruption except, of course, some local businesses closing down forever. The normal folk just kept going. That's the problem with this pandemic: it became a religious war above anything else. Everyone just chose to believe a camp and went on to happily scream at the "other team" afterwards. We need an actually informed and neutral party on these matters. A lot of the agents of this system have a vested economical interest for the lockdowns to continue -- and for people to get subjected multiple times to an experimental vaccine. I got through Covid twice -- before the news even broke out (Dec 2019 and Jan 2020). And I wore a mask ever since and still do. But I have some heart problems and reading the same sources that you do -- about how almost healthy people died in a lot of pain after taking the vaccine -- I think I'll wait for a little bit, thank you very much. I am not endangering anyone and I am tired of hearing that I do. No. I really don't endanger anyone. I just don't want to be an experimental lab rat and hold on to my life for a while longer. Same goes for many others. (And btw calling people anti-vax is super flamey. This is not what's happening here at all.)
      - caeril 5y ago
        What is tiring is the insistence of folks like you completely ignoring that fully 94% of those deaths came with comorbidities, far and away dominated by 1. Old age, and 2. Obesity. We've already vaccinated nearly 90% of group #1, and continuing to gain ground. We've heard nothing but crickets about group #2. Why? I don't know. Maybe letting people die of hypoxia is better than hurting their feelings. What I do know is that "folks like you" have absolutely no interest in actually solving problems or saving lives, because if you were, you'd actually look at the god damned reality of who is dying once in a while.
  - nradov 5y ago
    The common cold is caused by dozens of different viruses (including at least 4 coronaviruses). Gaining immunity to one of those cold viruses doesn't do much to protect against the others. https://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/cold-guide/common_cold_causes https://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/cold-guide/common_cold_ca...

kevin_thibedeau 5y ago

Healthcare workers routinely work under flu vaccine mandates even though they may already have effective antibodies.

jackson1442 5y ago

I’ve heard that many (most?) hospitals require that staff either wears a mask or gets the flu shot every year. Do these hospitals waive that requirement for people if they come down with the flu?

pengaru 5y ago
Influenza is special when it comes to mutations, so I wouldn't expect them to waive the flu vaccinations but I also don't think it directly relates to sars-cov2.
organsnyder 5y ago
My previous employer was a healthcare system. Despite my role as a software developer working in an office nowhere near patients, I was required to get the flu vaccine (which was fine with me). These sorts of mandates are nothing new for healthcare workers.
logosmonkey 5y ago
Yup, the healthcare system I work for requires Flu vax for everyone. Including back office folks like me. They have for years now.

msinca 5y ago

So, somebody who has little to no understanding of COVID, its ability to reinfect, the higher contagiousness of Delta variant, and thinks their Facebook feed has better scientific knowledge than experts in the field? Got it.

phren0logy 5y ago

There doesn’t seem to be any problem with vaccination after infection. It’s unclear if that actually translates into better outcomes, but it’s likely. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/09/07/1033677208/new-studies-find-evidence-of-superhuman-immunity-to-covid-19-in-some-individuals https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/09/07/1033677...

q1w2 5y ago
I feel like if they tested positive for covid-19 antibodies, that might be a valid exemption - because it's a bit much to require vaccinations for them if we still don't even know that it makes much difference.
- op00to 5y ago
  How many antibodies are needed? What level? What is the peer reviewed lower limit of antibodies to be safe? Oh? You don’t know? Well then.
  - q1w2 5y ago
    Exactly, it's NOT known. ...which is why it's not ethical to require their vaccination in order to work when the benefit to their patients is unknown. The burden of proof should be on the agency forcing vaccinations upon people to work.
    - op00to 5y ago
      But we DO know that vaccines prevent severe illness.

otikik 5y ago

"Perhaps does not need the vaccine", even if debatable, is still less good than "is vaccinated".

drfuchs 5y ago

From the CDC: "Yes, you should be vaccinated regardless of whether you already had COVID-19 because: * Research has not yet shown how long you are protected from getting COVID-19 again after you recover from COVID-19. * Vaccination helps protect you even if you’ve already had COVID-19. Evidence is emerging that people get better protection by being fully vaccinated compared with having had COVID-19. One study showed that unvaccinated people who already had COVID-19 are more than 2 times as likely than fully vaccinated people to get COVID-19 again." https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html

ghoward 5y ago
There are so many confounding variables that they can't make that statement without sounding like they're selling something. Does it matter when people were infected? Does it matter if you got the shot after being infected? Hint: it probably does because you probably have more antibodies right after getting the shot. In fact, they should do a study of uninfected vaccinated people who get infected. Do they have higher antibody counts after getting infected? They probably would. Does that mean that every vaccinated person should get infected too?
q1w2 5y ago
Right, but those CDC statements make it clear that the CDC is guessing and asking people to get vaccinated - not knowing if it's helpful or not.
- op00to 5y ago
  You are wrong. We know Covid vaccination is helpful and saves lives.
eplanit 5y ago
To be fair, that's the same CDC that only 5 months ago was saying getting vaccinated meant "getting back to normal" -- no masks, distancing rules, etc. Their reputation as being authoritative on this topic is understandably tarnished.

foogazi 5y ago

That’s just covid - what about all the other diseases like polio, tb, pertussis, chicken pox… Would you expect healthcare workers to be vaccinated against those ? Or should they wait to get the natural antibodies?

op00to 5y ago
Polio: no, across the world there are less than 100 cases a year. TB: we require teachers to take a TB test, why not health care? Pertussis: yes, that’s part of the TdAP vaccine and I was required to get that as an employee of a health system. Chicken pox: usually most people have antibodies for this either from vaccination or illness.

q1w2 5y ago

In these cases though, they have not. It would be a better argument to say that they've tested positive for covid-19 antibodies - but that's not what's going on here. They're just anti-vax.