8 ms·

One word: Apple. Preventing PWAs is detrimental to users and an abuse of their monopoly.

by gubikmic 5y ago

wruza 5y ago
Is android native development still a thing?
- Hydraulix989 5y ago
  I've only ever seen the NDK used for games
  - mcwhy 5y ago
    and all the packers, protectors and obfuscators that are sold as "must have"
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      Usually people that buy those never heard of IDA Pro and Hex-Rays.
- dataflow 5y ago
  It's always confusing when people say "native" on Android... you never know if they mean "not a web app" (SDK) or "machine code" (NDK). Do you mean the latter?
  - Asraelite 5y ago
    I'm pretty sure it's "not a web app" in most contexts, but that's an interesting point I hadn't thought of before. What do you mean by "machine code" though? To me, the most native you can get is a Java/C++ app that uses Android APIs directly. Anything lower is systems development, something not generally possible for normal developers.
    - dataflow 5y ago
      > What do you mean by "machine code" though? To me, the most native you can get is a Java/C++ app that uses Android APIs directly. I mean like C/C++ (which compiles to machine code) and not Java (which compiles to bytecode). Same as the distinction the terminology made on desktop: https://stackoverflow.com/a/855774 https://stackoverflow.com/a/855774
      - Asraelite 5y ago
        Would you consider something that's not a web app, but built with a higher level framework like Flutter to be native in either sense?
        dataflow 5y ago
        Me? Personally I hate any definition that conflicts with the old one, but that ship sailed long ago. Nowadays, my understanding is, if it's not loading a webpage off the internet, people call it "native". Doesn't matter what framework it uses to actually display things (even if it uses web technology).
      - vbezhenar 5y ago
        Android UI is implemented with Java libraries. If you want native Android L&F, you need to use those libraries. You can write your app with C++ and invoke those libraries via FFI, but that's extremely cumbersome way to develop and does not bring any advantages. Java is the native way to develop GUI apps for Android. And recently Java was replaced with Kotlin, so nowadays Kotlin is the native way to develop GUI apps for Android. Just like C# is one of the native ways to make Windows applications.
        dataflow 5y ago
        > Just like C# is one of the native ways to make Windows applications. Please do everyone a favor and, at least for the sake of desktop development, don't misuse the terminology like that if you want people to understand what you're saying. The entire reason ".NET Native" was developed was that C# did not produce "native" applications. Saying C# produces native Windows applications is going to confuse the heck out of everybody.
  - wruza 5y ago
    I meant “not a web app”, so both, I guess.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Native on Android, is what the native platform SDK offers as development experience when you install it on the computer. So Java, Kotlin, C, C++ and Web.
- occz 5y ago
  Yes, very much so.
toshk 5y ago
Its not sufficient of an explanation. For desktop browsers there are also no application launch icons. Probably has most to do with the limits of the UX of a phone. Pulling up a browser and typing in a url, hitting autocomplete is done in 2 seconds. On mobile everything is so much more painful, a lot more desire for one click wonder buttons
- wruza 5y ago
  Wait, there is sort of speeddial/favorites tab in every browser, desktop and mobile. E.g. a food ordering webapp is my first “wonder button” in safari’s empty tab. I could even put it to the phone home screen (no need for that though).
- brendoelfrendo 5y ago
  Chrome has the ability to save sites as a desktop shortcut. It even prompts you to do so on some web apps, like Stadia, so you can use it like a more "normal" desktop app. Safari on iOS can do this, too. You can pin a website to your home screen, which is something that I have done for PWAs. It could have easily gone another way where this was the "normal" behavior of the mobile ecosystem.
eloisant 5y ago
You should read the article. To sum it up: the web beat desktop apps because traditional OS were not designed for a networked world. The iPhone however was designed for a networked world so it didn't have all the limitations of desktop OS. The web wasn't designed for a mobile world so it had a lot of limitations: hard to do a good UX, passwords to type on a tiny keyboard, no offline mode (or so complex to use that no dev do), URL vs app icons...
- radicalbyte 5y ago
  Only that's not how the world works. The world works with power: Apple used their power to make strangle the entire idea of the web on mobile by putting a break on change. Why? Mobile web tech helps their competitors more than it helps them. If Apple's own platform / APIs had had the same rate of change as they effectively forced on the mobile web, then they would be a decade behind Android. This is exactly the same thing as Microsoft did in the 90s with productivity software. They had secret undocumented APIs which made Office a fantastic experience and non-office "meh".
  - radicalbyte 5y ago
    If you look carefully you'll see this tactic all over: throw mud in your opponents eyes to slow their rate of change. See: US banking (in the EU I can transfer cash, instantly, for free to a friend's bank account and have been able to do so for a decade), Fossil fuel vs Climate change, most commercial standard bodies. It's everywhere.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      > US banking (in the EU I can transfer cash, instantly, for free to a friend's bank account and have been able to do so for a decade) This one actually seems like a fault of the US government dragging its feet on making advancements on a nationwide protocol for transferring money and staying stuck on ACH. So much so that, that the biggest banks had to get together and create their own system 10 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelle_(payment_service) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelle_(payment_service) > Launched in April 2011, clearXchange was originally owned by Bank of America, JPMorgan Chase, and Wells Fargo. Supposedly, the US government is finally rolling out a proper system in 2023: https://www.federalreserve.gov/paymentsystems/fednow_about.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/paymentsystems/fednow_about.h...
pjmlp 5y ago
Mobile Web is enough for like 90% of CRUD stuff, regardless of PWAs. Yet, most business still go native due to the development experience, like not having to turn <div> magically into beautiful dropdown combo boxes with multiple selections via an HTML/CSS/JS soup, that don't feel quite right with the native ones.
isodev 5y ago
I don’t think so - PWAs on Android are also usable at best. It’s hard to twist the web into something it isn’t. So much effort goes into making the web do what native apps already do instead of trying to complement all that towards a better experience.
nbzso 5y ago
Apple is the reason. App store greed. We with our "design and virtue signalling" addiction helped a lot in creation of this monster. As far as I can remember, the real UI/UX innovation was killed fast. Palm/WebOS.

One word: Apple. Preventing PWAs is detrimental to users and an abuse of their monopoly.

wruza 5y ago

Is android native development still a thing?

Hydraulix989 5y ago
I've only ever seen the NDK used for games
- mcwhy 5y ago
  and all the packers, protectors and obfuscators that are sold as "must have"
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Usually people that buy those never heard of IDA Pro and Hex-Rays.
dataflow 5y ago
It's always confusing when people say "native" on Android... you never know if they mean "not a web app" (SDK) or "machine code" (NDK). Do you mean the latter?
- Asraelite 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure it's "not a web app" in most contexts, but that's an interesting point I hadn't thought of before. What do you mean by "machine code" though? To me, the most native you can get is a Java/C++ app that uses Android APIs directly. Anything lower is systems development, something not generally possible for normal developers.
  - dataflow 5y ago
    > What do you mean by "machine code" though? To me, the most native you can get is a Java/C++ app that uses Android APIs directly. I mean like C/C++ (which compiles to machine code) and not Java (which compiles to bytecode). Same as the distinction the terminology made on desktop: https://stackoverflow.com/a/855774 https://stackoverflow.com/a/855774
    - Asraelite 5y ago
      Would you consider something that's not a web app, but built with a higher level framework like Flutter to be native in either sense?
      - dataflow 5y ago
        Me? Personally I hate any definition that conflicts with the old one, but that ship sailed long ago. Nowadays, my understanding is, if it's not loading a webpage off the internet, people call it "native". Doesn't matter what framework it uses to actually display things (even if it uses web technology).
    - vbezhenar 5y ago
      Android UI is implemented with Java libraries. If you want native Android L&F, you need to use those libraries. You can write your app with C++ and invoke those libraries via FFI, but that's extremely cumbersome way to develop and does not bring any advantages. Java is the native way to develop GUI apps for Android. And recently Java was replaced with Kotlin, so nowadays Kotlin is the native way to develop GUI apps for Android. Just like C# is one of the native ways to make Windows applications.
      - dataflow 5y ago
        > Just like C# is one of the native ways to make Windows applications. Please do everyone a favor and, at least for the sake of desktop development, don't misuse the terminology like that if you want people to understand what you're saying. The entire reason ".NET Native" was developed was that C# did not produce "native" applications. Saying C# produces native Windows applications is going to confuse the heck out of everybody.
- wruza 5y ago
  I meant “not a web app”, so both, I guess.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Native on Android, is what the native platform SDK offers as development experience when you install it on the computer. So Java, Kotlin, C, C++ and Web.
occz 5y ago
Yes, very much so.

toshk 5y ago

Its not sufficient of an explanation. For desktop browsers there are also no application launch icons. Probably has most to do with the limits of the UX of a phone. Pulling up a browser and typing in a url, hitting autocomplete is done in 2 seconds. On mobile everything is so much more painful, a lot more desire for one click wonder buttons

wruza 5y ago
Wait, there is sort of speeddial/favorites tab in every browser, desktop and mobile. E.g. a food ordering webapp is my first “wonder button” in safari’s empty tab. I could even put it to the phone home screen (no need for that though).
brendoelfrendo 5y ago
Chrome has the ability to save sites as a desktop shortcut. It even prompts you to do so on some web apps, like Stadia, so you can use it like a more "normal" desktop app. Safari on iOS can do this, too. You can pin a website to your home screen, which is something that I have done for PWAs. It could have easily gone another way where this was the "normal" behavior of the mobile ecosystem.

eloisant 5y ago

You should read the article. To sum it up: the web beat desktop apps because traditional OS were not designed for a networked world. The iPhone however was designed for a networked world so it didn't have all the limitations of desktop OS. The web wasn't designed for a mobile world so it had a lot of limitations: hard to do a good UX, passwords to type on a tiny keyboard, no offline mode (or so complex to use that no dev do), URL vs app icons...

radicalbyte 5y ago
Only that's not how the world works. The world works with power: Apple used their power to make strangle the entire idea of the web on mobile by putting a break on change. Why? Mobile web tech helps their competitors more than it helps them. If Apple's own platform / APIs had had the same rate of change as they effectively forced on the mobile web, then they would be a decade behind Android. This is exactly the same thing as Microsoft did in the 90s with productivity software. They had secret undocumented APIs which made Office a fantastic experience and non-office "meh".
- radicalbyte 5y ago
  If you look carefully you'll see this tactic all over: throw mud in your opponents eyes to slow their rate of change. See: US banking (in the EU I can transfer cash, instantly, for free to a friend's bank account and have been able to do so for a decade), Fossil fuel vs Climate change, most commercial standard bodies. It's everywhere.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    > US banking (in the EU I can transfer cash, instantly, for free to a friend's bank account and have been able to do so for a decade) This one actually seems like a fault of the US government dragging its feet on making advancements on a nationwide protocol for transferring money and staying stuck on ACH. So much so that, that the biggest banks had to get together and create their own system 10 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelle_(payment_service) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelle_(payment_service) > Launched in April 2011, clearXchange was originally owned by Bank of America, JPMorgan Chase, and Wells Fargo. Supposedly, the US government is finally rolling out a proper system in 2023: https://www.federalreserve.gov/paymentsystems/fednow_about.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/paymentsystems/fednow_about.h...

pjmlp 5y ago

Mobile Web is enough for like 90% of CRUD stuff, regardless of PWAs. Yet, most business still go native due to the development experience, like not having to turn <div> magically into beautiful dropdown combo boxes with multiple selections via an HTML/CSS/JS soup, that don't feel quite right with the native ones.

isodev 5y ago

I don’t think so - PWAs on Android are also usable at best. It’s hard to twist the web into something it isn’t. So much effort goes into making the web do what native apps already do instead of trying to complement all that towards a better experience.

nbzso 5y ago

Apple is the reason. App store greed. We with our "design and virtue signalling" addiction helped a lot in creation of this monster. As far as I can remember, the real UI/UX innovation was killed fast. Palm/WebOS.