5 ms·

Atomic Gardening (2017)

82 points by Borrible 5y ago

anfractuosity 5y ago
I wonder if it's possible to DIY this, but using say a beta emitter, I just found: "Beta particles are less damaging but have greater penetration than alpha particles, and can cause DNA mutation and cell damage." Theoretically could you use an electron gun in a vacuum chamber to cause mutations in a seed?
- isoprophlex 5y ago
  Sure, I guess any mutagen would do, as long as you have some control over the dosage. Mutagenic chemicals might work equally well. Would be super annoying/dangerous to work with compared to flipping a switch on an electron gun though.
  - mimac 5y ago
    The mutagenesis is not the rate limiting step, its the screening of positive mutants.
- CamperBob2 5y ago
  That was one of the suggested experiments in the classic Amateur Scientist column "A Homemade Atom Smasher" (page 344 at http://www.sciencemadness.org/library/books/projects_for_the_amateur_scientist.pdf http://www.sciencemadness.org/library/books/projects_for_the... ). Spin up that old Van de Graaff in your closet and make some cool mutations!
- CapstanRoller 5y ago
  >Theoretically could you use an electron gun in a vacuum chamber to cause mutations in a seed? Yes https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/129124-japanese-scientists-use-particle-accelerator-to-create-salt-resistant-rice https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/129124-japanese-scientis...
frostburg 5y ago
"Creso" wheat, which is a popular cultivar in its native Italy and has been used around the world to create other variants, was obtained from seeds irradiated with neutrons and gamma rays. I always mention this to people irrationally worried about eating GMO food featuring precise edits.
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  I'm only vaguely familiar with the GMO debate, but isn't the primary concern that they make food into controllable IP, locking farmers into a SaaS-like subscription lock in, not allowed to replant their own seeds? Although I'm sure there are people who are just worried about the scary-sounding nature of "genetic modification", the IP angle struck me as a reasonable concern when I heard it.
  - frostburg 5y ago
    What you mention is a genuine concern (however as far as I understand the issue is not precisely that one - it's not generally efficient for farmers to use their own seeds anyway), but I'm talking about people that think that GMO food is going to harm their health for nebulous reasons.
    - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
      > it's not generally efficient for farmers to use their own seeds anyway This would certainly seem to be true for commercial farmers in the first world. I don’t know if it applies as much in the third world though.
  - tialaramex 5y ago
    For modern industrial farming (ie not you on a patch of ground you manage with tools you can pick up and carry) seeds are usually anyway purchased in bulk from a specialist. What you've described is a problem, but it's coincidental to the existence of GM. AIUI The spectre of GMO preventing seed saving got into the picture by the following route: 1. GMO opponents feared a GMO could spread in the wild, which sure enough can happen, and as with the whole "Vaccine might turn me into a chimp" (the Astrazeneca vaccine is based on a virus that infects Chimpanzees) thing they exaggerated the resulting risk, they argued that it's possible for genetics from the GMO to be copied into other things. So, maybe your weedkiller resistance gene gets copied into the weeds by some means. 2. GMO developers went OK, we can make a "terminator" feature so the modified plants don't reproduce, mitigating the problem. Nobody relies on self-seeding of crops for industrialised farming anyway and that'll fix your concern right? 3. Terminator is now an excuse to say the GMO seeds are deliberately broken to prevent seed saving. This is especially remarkable because Terminator is a specific feature, not included in most GM organisms, so, if that's really what you're afraid of then you'd only be opposed to those GMOs not the whole concept.
joatmon-snoo 5y ago
Fun fact: mutagenized crops are generally not considered to be GMOs. From https://geneticliteracyproject.org/gmo-faq/glp-tackles-one-of-the-most-frequently-asked-biotech-questions-what-are-gmos/ https://geneticliteracyproject.org/gmo-faq/glp-tackles-one-o... : > [...] chemical/physical mutagenesis and a lot of other techniques are “unnaturally” performed “in the lab” but are not classified as GMOs.
- SigmundA 5y ago
  So is the problem with categorizing anything, nature doesn't care about neat categories and honestly neither do we. We have genetically modified almost every organism we eat the only difference is the method of modification. When does something become GMO? Selective breeding? Mutagenesis? Marker assisted breeding? Targeted gene insertion? Who decides and why?
Borrible 5y ago
Ionically [0], if you take a sample of your crisp genome-edited tomato from your biosafe lab and plant it near the roses outside the lab building, plants that have been chemically mutated in some Chinese backwater, you're going to be in trouble. [0] {[(r)]} in biosafety lab level 3.
- quickthrower2 5y ago
  Ionically?
  - Borrible 5y ago
    Oh, just a frankenword I stitched together on the whim. Made from inoization and ironically. I know it's rough on the edges, but you have to work with what the body snatcher catches. The quarantined r in the footnote is a pun on sometimes unnecessary safety routines. It also lacks as the last letter of crispr... Since I see gen-editing as a form of wordplay, I thought it fitting. Ionized radiation is one method of mutation breeding. Atomic Gardening was just an extrem and sometimes whimsical form. See Muriel Howorth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation_breeding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation_breeding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_gardening https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_gardening
crvdgc 5y ago
When China began their space missions, one of the experiments is to make "space seeds" which are seeds mutated from space rays. It seems like this effort continues even up to now [0]. [0]: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202101/04/WS5ff25229a31024ad0baa0240.html http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202101/04/WS5ff25229a31024ad0...
- Borrible 5y ago
  I knew there is space mutation breeding, but didn't know about some kind of space cucumber... https://www.spacesafetymagazine.com/space-hazards/radiation/chinese-space-radiation-mutate-food-crops/ https://www.spacesafetymagazine.com/space-hazards/radiation/...

82 points by Borrible 5y ago

I wonder if it's possible to DIY this, but using say a beta emitter, I just found: "Beta particles are less damaging but have greater penetration than alpha particles, and can cause DNA mutation and cell damage." Theoretically could you use an electron gun in a vacuum chamber to cause mutations in a seed?

isoprophlex 5y ago
Sure, I guess any mutagen would do, as long as you have some control over the dosage. Mutagenic chemicals might work equally well. Would be super annoying/dangerous to work with compared to flipping a switch on an electron gun though.
- mimac 5y ago
  The mutagenesis is not the rate limiting step, its the screening of positive mutants.
CamperBob2 5y ago
That was one of the suggested experiments in the classic Amateur Scientist column "A Homemade Atom Smasher" (page 344 at http://www.sciencemadness.org/library/books/projects_for_the_amateur_scientist.pdf http://www.sciencemadness.org/library/books/projects_for_the... ). Spin up that old Van de Graaff in your closet and make some cool mutations!
CapstanRoller 5y ago
>Theoretically could you use an electron gun in a vacuum chamber to cause mutations in a seed? Yes https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/129124-japanese-scientists-use-particle-accelerator-to-create-salt-resistant-rice https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/129124-japanese-scientis...

frostburg 5y ago

"Creso" wheat, which is a popular cultivar in its native Italy and has been used around the world to create other variants, was obtained from seeds irradiated with neutrons and gamma rays. I always mention this to people irrationally worried about eating GMO food featuring precise edits.

beaconstudios 5y ago
I'm only vaguely familiar with the GMO debate, but isn't the primary concern that they make food into controllable IP, locking farmers into a SaaS-like subscription lock in, not allowed to replant their own seeds? Although I'm sure there are people who are just worried about the scary-sounding nature of "genetic modification", the IP angle struck me as a reasonable concern when I heard it.
- frostburg 5y ago
  What you mention is a genuine concern (however as far as I understand the issue is not precisely that one - it's not generally efficient for farmers to use their own seeds anyway), but I'm talking about people that think that GMO food is going to harm their health for nebulous reasons.
  - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
    > it's not generally efficient for farmers to use their own seeds anyway This would certainly seem to be true for commercial farmers in the first world. I don’t know if it applies as much in the third world though.
- tialaramex 5y ago
  For modern industrial farming (ie not you on a patch of ground you manage with tools you can pick up and carry) seeds are usually anyway purchased in bulk from a specialist. What you've described is a problem, but it's coincidental to the existence of GM. AIUI The spectre of GMO preventing seed saving got into the picture by the following route: 1. GMO opponents feared a GMO could spread in the wild, which sure enough can happen, and as with the whole "Vaccine might turn me into a chimp" (the Astrazeneca vaccine is based on a virus that infects Chimpanzees) thing they exaggerated the resulting risk, they argued that it's possible for genetics from the GMO to be copied into other things. So, maybe your weedkiller resistance gene gets copied into the weeds by some means. 2. GMO developers went OK, we can make a "terminator" feature so the modified plants don't reproduce, mitigating the problem. Nobody relies on self-seeding of crops for industrialised farming anyway and that'll fix your concern right? 3. Terminator is now an excuse to say the GMO seeds are deliberately broken to prevent seed saving. This is especially remarkable because Terminator is a specific feature, not included in most GM organisms, so, if that's really what you're afraid of then you'd only be opposed to those GMOs not the whole concept.

joatmon-snoo 5y ago

Fun fact: mutagenized crops are generally not considered to be GMOs. From https://geneticliteracyproject.org/gmo-faq/glp-tackles-one-of-the-most-frequently-asked-biotech-questions-what-are-gmos/ https://geneticliteracyproject.org/gmo-faq/glp-tackles-one-o... : > [...] chemical/physical mutagenesis and a lot of other techniques are “unnaturally” performed “in the lab” but are not classified as GMOs.

SigmundA 5y ago
So is the problem with categorizing anything, nature doesn't care about neat categories and honestly neither do we. We have genetically modified almost every organism we eat the only difference is the method of modification. When does something become GMO? Selective breeding? Mutagenesis? Marker assisted breeding? Targeted gene insertion? Who decides and why?

Borrible 5y ago

Ionically [0], if you take a sample of your crisp genome-edited tomato from your biosafe lab and plant it near the roses outside the lab building, plants that have been chemically mutated in some Chinese backwater, you're going to be in trouble. [0] {[(r)]} in biosafety lab level 3.

quickthrower2 5y ago
Ionically?
- Borrible 5y ago
  Oh, just a frankenword I stitched together on the whim. Made from inoization and ironically. I know it's rough on the edges, but you have to work with what the body snatcher catches. The quarantined r in the footnote is a pun on sometimes unnecessary safety routines. It also lacks as the last letter of crispr... Since I see gen-editing as a form of wordplay, I thought it fitting. Ionized radiation is one method of mutation breeding. Atomic Gardening was just an extrem and sometimes whimsical form. See Muriel Howorth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation_breeding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation_breeding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_gardening https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_gardening

crvdgc 5y ago

When China began their space missions, one of the experiments is to make "space seeds" which are seeds mutated from space rays. It seems like this effort continues even up to now [0]. [0]: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202101/04/WS5ff25229a31024ad0baa0240.html http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202101/04/WS5ff25229a31024ad0...

Borrible 5y ago
I knew there is space mutation breeding, but didn't know about some kind of space cucumber... https://www.spacesafetymagazine.com/space-hazards/radiation/chinese-space-radiation-mutate-food-crops/ https://www.spacesafetymagazine.com/space-hazards/radiation/...