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As a user, I have zero desire to use some random payment gateway, using Apple makes my life easier, I can reasonably trust Apple not to let someone steal my mon

As a user, I have zero desire to use some random payment gateway, using Apple makes my life easier, I can reasonably trust Apple not to let someone steal my money, how am I supposed to trust 50 different gateways? Also if people move away from giving Apple any money for the App Store, I expect the annual fee to increase to make up for it, and might Apple make you pay more if you don't use Apple's gateway? I don't see the ruling as forcing Apple to lose money. If I were Apple, I would have gone nuclear early on, and eliminated all % fees but made the annual fee per app of $X to each developer (whatever $ makes sense) and then you can collect money however you want. This would likely kill a lot of small app developers, but the big ones would not care. The ruling makes Epic a big winner, but everyone else loses in the long run, because Apple (and Google) will find a way to recover lost revenue. Some people also want to have 1000 app stores allowed. Good luck with that one... imagine having to build an app store just for your app, or supporting 25 different app stores.

madeofpalk 5y ago
> how am I supposed to trust 50 different gateways? Do you not buy things online currently? Do you not use Amazon, or Lyft, or Netflix, or Spotify?
- gigatexal 5y ago
  I’d trust them a lot more if they used Apple Pay. Just saying.
- barkerja 5y ago
  My concern is less about random one-off purchases but more the management of on-going subscriptions. Having Apple handle that, is a blessing, from a user perspective. I have a single place to manage all the random $1 - $10 subscriptions that I have, making it easy to change/cancel at any moment's notice, and from any device.
  - encryptluks2 5y ago
    What is to stop you from searching for services that still let you use Apple Pay? No one is stopping you from living in your tight-knit Apple world, but you seem discontent with the idea that people will no longer have to live there and would rather find ways to force them to stay there with you.
    - pertymcpert 5y ago
      I don't think Apple Pay can do that? It's a one off payment thing.
    - veilrap 5y ago
      Maybe those users would be better off with the more popular products offered by Apple's competitors.
  - chipotle_coyote 5y ago
    I don't think there's anything in this injunction that stops Apple from building a mandatory subscription-cancelling API, which I wouldn't be surprised if they're actually already working on due to earlier rulings this month. In other words, you might be able to subscribe to FooCalendar using their Stripe API system, but FooCo has to make sure that your FooCalendar subscription shows up in your list of subscriptions, maybe under a "Non-Apple Subscriptions" list, that still lets you cancel with one tap -- or at least one tap to take you to that app's subscription management page. (I'm sure there will be some people upset at that kind of interfering overreach, but it's the kind of interfering overreach most of us would actually like.)
    - jimmydorry 5y ago
      Why would Apple make and provide something like that? They won't get anything for providing such an API to make the billing experience nicer for their competitors. It's directly in their interest to have as many scam billing providers as possible so they can point at them and tell us that this is what they protecting us from.
BackBlast 5y ago
Are you willing to spend 27% more for everything to use Apple payment gateway? Do you love it that much? At the end of the day, services have to provide value. If your customers don't want to pay for your services, they do not value them. That's a dangerous position for any company to try to maintain. The mobile software industry generally has been chaffing at the fees for quite some time now, these are the warning signs that all is not well.
- zachlatta 5y ago
  Honestly in some cases, yes. Subscription in-app purchases are the only subscriptions I have ever signed up for that are easy to cancel. I prefer to subscribe to services through in-app purchases over the service's website itself because it's always easy to cancel subscriptions made through Apple, and I never forget I'm getting charged because I get payment receipts.
- NationalPark 5y ago
  There’s tons of value in a unified payment system, which is why it’s app developers who were unhappy, not users. For instance, ease of cancellation of recurring fees is enormous. You can bet that’s going to get harder as developers get more control. And anyway, The app developers have no motivation to charge you less, the market already bears the fees, they just want to capture that profit for themselves. Personally I probably just won’t buy things that require me to sign up for a new payment system, but I don’t play mobile games so I’m probably not representative of who this impacts the most.
  - madeofpalk 5y ago
    > which is why it’s app developers who were unhappy, not users The judge commented on that >> "Apple created an innovative platform but it did not disclose its rules to the average consumer. Apple has used this lack of knowledge to exploit its position. --- > Personally I probably just won’t buy things that require me to sign up for a new payment system You, as a consumer, will now have a choice, which you'll get to exercise! You will be able to send a market signal for products (either the service you might subscribe to, and Apple) to get better and attract more developers/users. This sounds like a win!
mystcb 5y ago
> As a user, I have zero desire to use some random payment gateway, using Apple makes my life easier, I can reasonably trust Apple not to let someone steal my money, how am I supposed to trust 50 different gateways? I think this is a fair argument, and I believe also shows that if options are available, that is where us as a consumer have our freedom. I also personally like the ability to quickly pay when needed for things using Apple, but in return - if I was able to pay for it because another offer, or option, or something was presented to me that was easier, I would totally take that that too. However, I can see how that would be a loss for the people writing and maintaining the app and the associated services. The problem I see is that this swinging at the moment between a single payment gateway and every payment gateway out there is a huge pendulum that is swinging to the extremes of both, neither side actually gets anything good out of it. It would be lovely in a world where the option was to use Apple + an external, and letting users decide what they feel safe with. Some will be happy going direct with Apple, some would be happier with <insert payment style here>. I think it is mentioned below, I can see larger companies immediately dropping the Apple method because it loses them the extra profit, and just making the ecosystem harder. People lose faith in paying for services, and then another service comes along, charging 30%, and we are back where we started. So yeah, IMHO, it is good it is being recognised, but at the same time, its going to be a bumpy ride.
atishay811 5y ago
I think what it will eventually turn out to be is - Apple will require IAP/Storekit but will be forced to allow others. And you will see something like this - $10 - Pay by Apple, $8 Pay via Amazon/Google/Whoever big name enters this business, $7 pay by credit card directly. And you can chose if you need Apple's unsubscribe, want to trust Amazon for $2 discount, or want to get a further $1 discount by entering your credit card number and risking doing a chargeback in the future if the developer is really crappy. Eventually Apple will get down to make the Amazon not turn profit out of iOS IAP and then you will be left with two choices.
webmobdev 5y ago
> how am I supposed to trust 50 different gateways? It's your government's job to make sure that you have faith in financial institutions and trust the infrastructure through which financial transactions happen. If not, corporates like Apple will continue to exploit your misplaced trust by charging you 30% - 50% on every transaction. The solution isn't Apple or Google or some other corporate, but your government and better regulations.
- paulmd 5y ago
  HN libertarians: “This isn’t the right approach! You need government regulation!” Everyone: so could I get some regulation on [literally any exploitative startup practice” HN, creepy smiling face: “haha eat shit” The reaction to GDPR, or the Cali privacy law, or the Uber employee classification, or literally any other regulation* shows how hollow those words are. When anyone tries to regulate these sorts of things you’ll shriek like a banshee about how unfair these regulations are.

madeofpalk 5y ago

> how am I supposed to trust 50 different gateways? Do you not buy things online currently? Do you not use Amazon, or Lyft, or Netflix, or Spotify?

gigatexal 5y ago
I’d trust them a lot more if they used Apple Pay. Just saying.
barkerja 5y ago
My concern is less about random one-off purchases but more the management of on-going subscriptions. Having Apple handle that, is a blessing, from a user perspective. I have a single place to manage all the random $1 - $10 subscriptions that I have, making it easy to change/cancel at any moment's notice, and from any device.
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  What is to stop you from searching for services that still let you use Apple Pay? No one is stopping you from living in your tight-knit Apple world, but you seem discontent with the idea that people will no longer have to live there and would rather find ways to force them to stay there with you.
  - pertymcpert 5y ago
    I don't think Apple Pay can do that? It's a one off payment thing.
  - veilrap 5y ago
    Maybe those users would be better off with the more popular products offered by Apple's competitors.
- chipotle_coyote 5y ago
  I don't think there's anything in this injunction that stops Apple from building a mandatory subscription-cancelling API, which I wouldn't be surprised if they're actually already working on due to earlier rulings this month. In other words, you might be able to subscribe to FooCalendar using their Stripe API system, but FooCo has to make sure that your FooCalendar subscription shows up in your list of subscriptions, maybe under a "Non-Apple Subscriptions" list, that still lets you cancel with one tap -- or at least one tap to take you to that app's subscription management page. (I'm sure there will be some people upset at that kind of interfering overreach, but it's the kind of interfering overreach most of us would actually like.)
  - jimmydorry 5y ago
    Why would Apple make and provide something like that? They won't get anything for providing such an API to make the billing experience nicer for their competitors. It's directly in their interest to have as many scam billing providers as possible so they can point at them and tell us that this is what they protecting us from.

BackBlast 5y ago

Are you willing to spend 27% more for everything to use Apple payment gateway? Do you love it that much? At the end of the day, services have to provide value. If your customers don't want to pay for your services, they do not value them. That's a dangerous position for any company to try to maintain. The mobile software industry generally has been chaffing at the fees for quite some time now, these are the warning signs that all is not well.

zachlatta 5y ago
Honestly in some cases, yes. Subscription in-app purchases are the only subscriptions I have ever signed up for that are easy to cancel. I prefer to subscribe to services through in-app purchases over the service's website itself because it's always easy to cancel subscriptions made through Apple, and I never forget I'm getting charged because I get payment receipts.
NationalPark 5y ago
There’s tons of value in a unified payment system, which is why it’s app developers who were unhappy, not users. For instance, ease of cancellation of recurring fees is enormous. You can bet that’s going to get harder as developers get more control. And anyway, The app developers have no motivation to charge you less, the market already bears the fees, they just want to capture that profit for themselves. Personally I probably just won’t buy things that require me to sign up for a new payment system, but I don’t play mobile games so I’m probably not representative of who this impacts the most.
- madeofpalk 5y ago
  > which is why it’s app developers who were unhappy, not users The judge commented on that >> "Apple created an innovative platform but it did not disclose its rules to the average consumer. Apple has used this lack of knowledge to exploit its position. --- > Personally I probably just won’t buy things that require me to sign up for a new payment system You, as a consumer, will now have a choice, which you'll get to exercise! You will be able to send a market signal for products (either the service you might subscribe to, and Apple) to get better and attract more developers/users. This sounds like a win!

mystcb 5y ago

> As a user, I have zero desire to use some random payment gateway, using Apple makes my life easier, I can reasonably trust Apple not to let someone steal my money, how am I supposed to trust 50 different gateways? I think this is a fair argument, and I believe also shows that if options are available, that is where us as a consumer have our freedom. I also personally like the ability to quickly pay when needed for things using Apple, but in return - if I was able to pay for it because another offer, or option, or something was presented to me that was easier, I would totally take that that too. However, I can see how that would be a loss for the people writing and maintaining the app and the associated services. The problem I see is that this swinging at the moment between a single payment gateway and every payment gateway out there is a huge pendulum that is swinging to the extremes of both, neither side actually gets anything good out of it. It would be lovely in a world where the option was to use Apple + an external, and letting users decide what they feel safe with. Some will be happy going direct with Apple, some would be happier with <insert payment style here>. I think it is mentioned below, I can see larger companies immediately dropping the Apple method because it loses them the extra profit, and just making the ecosystem harder. People lose faith in paying for services, and then another service comes along, charging 30%, and we are back where we started. So yeah, IMHO, it is good it is being recognised, but at the same time, its going to be a bumpy ride.

atishay811 5y ago

I think what it will eventually turn out to be is - Apple will require IAP/Storekit but will be forced to allow others. And you will see something like this - $10 - Pay by Apple, $8 Pay via Amazon/Google/Whoever big name enters this business, $7 pay by credit card directly. And you can chose if you need Apple's unsubscribe, want to trust Amazon for $2 discount, or want to get a further $1 discount by entering your credit card number and risking doing a chargeback in the future if the developer is really crappy. Eventually Apple will get down to make the Amazon not turn profit out of iOS IAP and then you will be left with two choices.

webmobdev 5y ago

> how am I supposed to trust 50 different gateways? It's your government's job to make sure that you have faith in financial institutions and trust the infrastructure through which financial transactions happen. If not, corporates like Apple will continue to exploit your misplaced trust by charging you 30% - 50% on every transaction. The solution isn't Apple or Google or some other corporate, but your government and better regulations.

paulmd 5y ago
HN libertarians: “This isn’t the right approach! You need government regulation!” Everyone: so could I get some regulation on [literally any exploitative startup practice” HN, creepy smiling face: “haha eat shit” The reaction to GDPR, or the Cali privacy law, or the Uber employee classification, or literally any other regulation* shows how hollow those words are. When anyone tries to regulate these sorts of things you’ll shriek like a banshee about how unfair these regulations are.