9 ms·

And why do they find it sexist?

mint2 5y ago
Because people come from a wide variety of backgrounds with a wide variety of experiences and knowledge that informs their opinions of things, so that one group of people such as many hacker news commenters may take the term to be non-controversial there are other large groups that have different experiences. wishing they didn’t won’t chance that fact. On hacker news it may seem like there is little difference in opinion, but keep in mind hacker news readers are a fairy like minded subsample of the population.
- Grustaf 5y ago
  No I mean in what sense could it possibly be “sexist”? It’s not demeaning to women, at least not more so than to men. It might be a bit raunchy, but in a gender neutral way.
  - dekhn 5y ago
    it's sexist in the minds of people like ashley who want to take down apple. probably due to misinterpretation or misunderstanding on her part.
  - mint2 5y ago
    Here is a somewhat wandering account of the term, showing it’s many sides. Enjoy. https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/11/02/360479744/why-corporate-executives-talk-about-opening-their-kimonos https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/11/02/360479744...
    - dekhn 5y ago
      It appears that the beliefs of most of the people who are opposed to it are based on incorrect assumptions (for example kimono -> geisha). Put another way, the people who are using it are neither intending to be insulting, racist, or sexist, and the people complaining about don't have a legitimate reason to be unhappy, because their analysis is just wrong.
      - mint2 5y ago
        That line of argument is probably not going to convince HR or a lot of 50% of the nation. If you play a word association game, having people say the first word or words that come to mind when they see the word “kimono” what do you think the top few will be? My guess is that for an average American, the top three would be Japan, geisha and clothing. What do you think most Americans would say? And what are your top three?
        dekhn 5y ago
        my top three are "elegant" "samurai" "oshiroi" because I grew up reading american manga But yes, many people in america group "geisha" "oshiroi" and "kabuki" all sort of mix together into this image: https://geishakai.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/HANAFUSA-24042017-323-667x1024.jpg https://geishakai.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/HANAFUSA-240... I would be more than happily to be pulled up to HR if a coworker reported me for saying "open kimono" (not a phrase I would normally say). I'm sure HR would have a wonderful time talking to my lawyer.
        Grustaf 5y ago
        This is so stupid I don't even know what to say. Geishas have kimonos hence expressions involving kimonos are sexist? Samurai also wear kimonos, as do priests and sumo wrestlers. Sure, the general public is uneducated but come on, this is reaching. I seriously doubt most people even make the connection between geishas and kimonos. In fact, most people don't even mean kimono when they say kimono, they mean a vaguely asiatic thin robe, pretty popular in the 80s. That also makes more sense for the expressions, since they are easy to open. An actual kimono takes 10 minutes to open, it's probably the least sexually suggestive garment in the world.
        mint2 5y ago
        Okay righty there you got it. You just said why many people would find the phrase sexist (you actually say most people) > “ In fact, most people don't even mean kimono when they say kimono, they mean a vaguely asiatic thin robe, pretty popular in the 80s” The difficulty in understanding how most people would react to the phrase appears to be because you’re judging it based on your understanding of the term, not on what you yourself said is the general public’s understanding.

Because people come from a wide variety of backgrounds with a wide variety of experiences and knowledge that informs their opinions of things, so that one group of people such as many hacker news commenters may take the term to be non-controversial there are other large groups that have different experiences. wishing they didn’t won’t chance that fact. On hacker news it may seem like there is little difference in opinion, but keep in mind hacker news readers are a fairy like minded subsample of the population.

Grustaf 5y ago
No I mean in what sense could it possibly be “sexist”? It’s not demeaning to women, at least not more so than to men. It might be a bit raunchy, but in a gender neutral way.
- dekhn 5y ago
  it's sexist in the minds of people like ashley who want to take down apple. probably due to misinterpretation or misunderstanding on her part.
- mint2 5y ago
  Here is a somewhat wandering account of the term, showing it’s many sides. Enjoy. https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/11/02/360479744/why-corporate-executives-talk-about-opening-their-kimonos https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/11/02/360479744...
  - dekhn 5y ago
    It appears that the beliefs of most of the people who are opposed to it are based on incorrect assumptions (for example kimono -> geisha). Put another way, the people who are using it are neither intending to be insulting, racist, or sexist, and the people complaining about don't have a legitimate reason to be unhappy, because their analysis is just wrong.
    - mint2 5y ago
      That line of argument is probably not going to convince HR or a lot of 50% of the nation. If you play a word association game, having people say the first word or words that come to mind when they see the word “kimono” what do you think the top few will be? My guess is that for an average American, the top three would be Japan, geisha and clothing. What do you think most Americans would say? And what are your top three?
      - dekhn 5y ago
        my top three are "elegant" "samurai" "oshiroi" because I grew up reading american manga But yes, many people in america group "geisha" "oshiroi" and "kabuki" all sort of mix together into this image: https://geishakai.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/HANAFUSA-24042017-323-667x1024.jpg https://geishakai.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/HANAFUSA-240... I would be more than happily to be pulled up to HR if a coworker reported me for saying "open kimono" (not a phrase I would normally say). I'm sure HR would have a wonderful time talking to my lawyer.
      - Grustaf 5y ago
        This is so stupid I don't even know what to say. Geishas have kimonos hence expressions involving kimonos are sexist? Samurai also wear kimonos, as do priests and sumo wrestlers. Sure, the general public is uneducated but come on, this is reaching. I seriously doubt most people even make the connection between geishas and kimonos. In fact, most people don't even mean kimono when they say kimono, they mean a vaguely asiatic thin robe, pretty popular in the 80s. That also makes more sense for the expressions, since they are easy to open. An actual kimono takes 10 minutes to open, it's probably the least sexually suggestive garment in the world.
        mint2 5y ago
        Okay righty there you got it. You just said why many people would find the phrase sexist (you actually say most people) > “ In fact, most people don't even mean kimono when they say kimono, they mean a vaguely asiatic thin robe, pretty popular in the 80s” The difficulty in understanding how most people would react to the phrase appears to be because you’re judging it based on your understanding of the term, not on what you yourself said is the general public’s understanding.