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Personally, I am surprised at all the anti-competitive actions Apple has been able to get away with over the years: Bundling the OS with hardware Enforcing an

Personally, I am surprised at all the anti-competitive actions Apple has been able to get away with over the years: Bundling the OS with hardware Enforcing an App store Dictating/Castrating Browser on mobile And the list goes on. I'm not saying this as a ding on Apple products, because I genuinely appreciate them, but I think at the same time Apple has resorted to creating roadblocks rather than innovating.

belltaco 5y ago
>Dictating/Castrating Browser on mobile Not just mobile, but iPad Pro and iPads too.
- pwinnski 5y ago
  Wait, are you suggesting that iPads and iPads Pro are not mobile? In what sense are they tethered?
  - BizarroLand 5y ago
    I think they mean systems with a SIM card or internet access without being tethered to WIFI.
    - MBCook 5y ago
      You can buy iPads with cellular. You’ve been able to since the iPad 1.
      - BizarroLand 5y ago
        Yes, you can buy them, but not everyone does. Phones are by default portable with their own network connection, whereas iPads have to be specifically chosen to have cellular data service. It's alright to overlook them.
  - 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
    The same sense as laptops. At a wild guess, I’m betting most people are buying ipads with wifi only, not cellular.
  - belltaco 5y ago
    Are ultraportable laptops tethered? Would you call them mobile? Anyway, "mobile" has long been used as a short form for "mobile phone" rather than a "mobile device". E.g. the iPod was not called a mobile, and AFAIK barely anyone uses that term for tablets.
  - wvenable 5y ago
    If iPads are mobile, why aren't laptops?
    - toast0 5y ago
      Laptops use mobile cpus, but desktop oses and software. PC based tablets are kind of weird, but iOS/Android mobile OS based tablets are more or less phones with big screens and no/limited calling features.
      - wvenable 5y ago
        "Desktop OS's and software" is an arbitrary definition. Smartphones are just computers that make calls. Steve Jobs even famously said that the iPhone ran "OS X" when it was first launched.
        toast0 5y ago
        It is somewhat arbitrary; yeah, smart phones can run whatever, but practically, they don't. For many reasons, the vast majority of people stick with the OS a device ships with, and mobile OSes are directed towards app stores and limited filesystems, and desktop OSes are directed towards applications (with a side of app stores) and visible filesystems and what not. You can run Android on a desktop PC, and you can (if you try really hard) run desktop Windows on a phone or a game console, but that's not how the devices are generally sold, and that's not how the devices are generally used. Apple sometimes claims their tablets are as useful as a computer running a desktop OS, but they don't provide Xcode for the iPad, do they?
yurishimo 5y ago
> Bundling the OS with hardware Is this really an issue? I agree Apple has been pretty shady but this is a facet of any hardware you buy today from any manufacturer. Now, preventing/obfuscating the install of _other_ OS software, I agree, total bullshit.
- skohan 5y ago
  Yes exactly. It's not the bundling that's the problem, it's preventing free use of the hardware.
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    Is that actually an issue though, given that Apple has never advertised their hardware as being "free-use"?
    - gpm 5y ago
      In my opinion it should be, it should be an abuse of Apple's monopoly on the hardware (including patents preventing someone else from building an equivalent device) to create a monopoly on the software. Legally I don't think it is today though, and my understanding of the law is that it's precisely because they haven't advertised their hardware as open as you say.
    - smoldesu 5y ago
      It's an issue given that I'd be more interested in using a Mac if I could choose which graphics card I get to use instead of perusing a pre-approved list of B-rate processing units.
      - judge2020 5y ago
        Technically, if you've got the know-how, you could code your own graphics acceleration drivers for nVidia cards on MacOS, it'd just be extremely hard and expensive to do so.
endisneigh 5y ago
If Apple were a minor player, would the things you describe still be anti-competitive?
- mmastrac 5y ago
  Yes, but if you're tiny it just doesn't matter, and the laws are explicitly written with this in mind.
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    Do you have examples of these laws (in the USA specifically)?
2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
One fact that has emerged is that Apple is pushing lock-in as a strategy. So to everyone who has ever felt like they are too "invested" in the ecosystem to leave- that is by design. You are victims.
- simonh 5y ago
  How dare they make their systems work so well together and easy to use.
  - xvector 5y ago
    The Google Pixel works well and is easy to use but still lets you install custom ROMs.
    - btmiller 5y ago
      Sounds to me like the invisible hand of the free market economy. Use that phone, then. A given company is not obligated to serve all of your specific needs and desires.
      - widowlark 5y ago
        but their practices might still be considered anti-competitive if harmful enough to end users
        paulmd 5y ago
        You’re perfectly welcome to consider whatever you want but the judge just ruled it isn’t. That’s legalese for “your opinion is wrong”.
        widowlark 5y ago
        that's not legalese, and that's not the judges ruling
  - 5y ago
dynjo 5y ago
Yet you are ok with your Microwave/Washing Machine/Car etc being supplied as a software/hardware combination...
JohnWhigham 5y ago
I'm not. Amazon does the same thing: produce a great end product, and users won't give a shit about what you did behind closed doors to get it that way.
tw600040 5y ago
//Bundling the OS with hardware... What about bundling camera, speaker, screen, processors etc? They are selling a product. You don't complain about car companies bundling 4 wheels and a motor.
agilob 5y ago
>Bundling the OS with hardware Is this anticompetitive if it's a fundament of old business model back from 80s?
asdff 5y ago
It blows my mind how Apple can do all of this but windows got dinged for IE
scarface74 5y ago
Would you prefer that a judge forces a company to support other hardware?
paulmd 5y ago
Jeez, how long has it been since the Microsoft store on Xbox 360? 15 years now? Probably nearly predates the iPhone. And Microsoft was a signatory to this lawsuit arguing Apple should have to open up but their store is “different”…
nnain 5y ago
Yeah! I hate the idea of retroactive taxes. But the way big-tech blocks others, there should be some compensation to the things they inhibited. (Should oil companies be penalised for the damage they have done to the environment just in terms of promoting plastic?)

belltaco 5y ago

>Dictating/Castrating Browser on mobile Not just mobile, but iPad Pro and iPads too.

pwinnski 5y ago
Wait, are you suggesting that iPads and iPads Pro are not mobile? In what sense are they tethered?
- BizarroLand 5y ago
  I think they mean systems with a SIM card or internet access without being tethered to WIFI.
  - MBCook 5y ago
    You can buy iPads with cellular. You’ve been able to since the iPad 1.
    - BizarroLand 5y ago
      Yes, you can buy them, but not everyone does. Phones are by default portable with their own network connection, whereas iPads have to be specifically chosen to have cellular data service. It's alright to overlook them.
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
  The same sense as laptops. At a wild guess, I’m betting most people are buying ipads with wifi only, not cellular.
- belltaco 5y ago
  Are ultraportable laptops tethered? Would you call them mobile? Anyway, "mobile" has long been used as a short form for "mobile phone" rather than a "mobile device". E.g. the iPod was not called a mobile, and AFAIK barely anyone uses that term for tablets.
- wvenable 5y ago
  If iPads are mobile, why aren't laptops?
  - toast0 5y ago
    Laptops use mobile cpus, but desktop oses and software. PC based tablets are kind of weird, but iOS/Android mobile OS based tablets are more or less phones with big screens and no/limited calling features.
    - wvenable 5y ago
      "Desktop OS's and software" is an arbitrary definition. Smartphones are just computers that make calls. Steve Jobs even famously said that the iPhone ran "OS X" when it was first launched.
      - toast0 5y ago
        It is somewhat arbitrary; yeah, smart phones can run whatever, but practically, they don't. For many reasons, the vast majority of people stick with the OS a device ships with, and mobile OSes are directed towards app stores and limited filesystems, and desktop OSes are directed towards applications (with a side of app stores) and visible filesystems and what not. You can run Android on a desktop PC, and you can (if you try really hard) run desktop Windows on a phone or a game console, but that's not how the devices are generally sold, and that's not how the devices are generally used. Apple sometimes claims their tablets are as useful as a computer running a desktop OS, but they don't provide Xcode for the iPad, do they?

yurishimo 5y ago

> Bundling the OS with hardware Is this really an issue? I agree Apple has been pretty shady but this is a facet of any hardware you buy today from any manufacturer. Now, preventing/obfuscating the install of _other_ OS software, I agree, total bullshit.

skohan 5y ago
Yes exactly. It's not the bundling that's the problem, it's preventing free use of the hardware.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  Is that actually an issue though, given that Apple has never advertised their hardware as being "free-use"?
  - gpm 5y ago
    In my opinion it should be, it should be an abuse of Apple's monopoly on the hardware (including patents preventing someone else from building an equivalent device) to create a monopoly on the software. Legally I don't think it is today though, and my understanding of the law is that it's precisely because they haven't advertised their hardware as open as you say.
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    It's an issue given that I'd be more interested in using a Mac if I could choose which graphics card I get to use instead of perusing a pre-approved list of B-rate processing units.
    - judge2020 5y ago
      Technically, if you've got the know-how, you could code your own graphics acceleration drivers for nVidia cards on MacOS, it'd just be extremely hard and expensive to do so.

endisneigh 5y ago

If Apple were a minor player, would the things you describe still be anti-competitive?

mmastrac 5y ago
Yes, but if you're tiny it just doesn't matter, and the laws are explicitly written with this in mind.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  Do you have examples of these laws (in the USA specifically)?

2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago

One fact that has emerged is that Apple is pushing lock-in as a strategy. So to everyone who has ever felt like they are too "invested" in the ecosystem to leave- that is by design. You are victims.

simonh 5y ago
How dare they make their systems work so well together and easy to use.
- xvector 5y ago
  The Google Pixel works well and is easy to use but still lets you install custom ROMs.
  - btmiller 5y ago
    Sounds to me like the invisible hand of the free market economy. Use that phone, then. A given company is not obligated to serve all of your specific needs and desires.
    - widowlark 5y ago
      but their practices might still be considered anti-competitive if harmful enough to end users
      - paulmd 5y ago
        You’re perfectly welcome to consider whatever you want but the judge just ruled it isn’t. That’s legalese for “your opinion is wrong”.
        widowlark 5y ago
        that's not legalese, and that's not the judges ruling
- 5y ago

dynjo 5y ago

Yet you are ok with your Microwave/Washing Machine/Car etc being supplied as a software/hardware combination...

JohnWhigham 5y ago

I'm not. Amazon does the same thing: produce a great end product, and users won't give a shit about what you did behind closed doors to get it that way.

tw600040 5y ago

//Bundling the OS with hardware... What about bundling camera, speaker, screen, processors etc? They are selling a product. You don't complain about car companies bundling 4 wheels and a motor.

agilob 5y ago

>Bundling the OS with hardware Is this anticompetitive if it's a fundament of old business model back from 80s?

asdff 5y ago

It blows my mind how Apple can do all of this but windows got dinged for IE

scarface74 5y ago

Would you prefer that a judge forces a company to support other hardware?

paulmd 5y ago

Jeez, how long has it been since the Microsoft store on Xbox 360? 15 years now? Probably nearly predates the iPhone. And Microsoft was a signatory to this lawsuit arguing Apple should have to open up but their store is “different”…

nnain 5y ago

Yeah! I hate the idea of retroactive taxes. But the way big-tech blocks others, there should be some compensation to the things they inhibited. (Should oil companies be penalised for the damage they have done to the environment just in terms of promoting plastic?)