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“Open the kimono” isn’t that another way of saying “open the article of clothing primarily worn by women”? To be honest this is the first time I’ve heard the te

by mint2 5y ago

“Open the kimono” isn’t that another way of saying “open the article of clothing primarily worn by women”? To be honest this is the first time I’ve heard the term but it sounds rather problematic. Edit: explain downvotes and don’t downvote just because you don’t like the perspective. Sure there are men’s kimonos but ask some random person on the street and ask who wears kimonos and men will not be the answer.

Grustaf 5y ago
Why would it be offensive just because random Americans think that "women are the ones that wear kimono"? Even if it were true. For the puritanical American mind it might be offensive to even imagine nudity, but other than that I really don't get it.
- mint2 5y ago
  Because the context is American office settings? Look I don’t make American culture, I’m simply pointing out how a huge chunk of office workers will perceive it. Anyway, I can tell people can see this perspective, but want to pretend it’s invalid because they don’t like it. those against what they call “cancel” culture then reacting to opinions they deem unpopular by downvoting shows they don’t care about the principal of what they call “cancel” culture in general but only care that what they are used to is being “cancelled”. Has anyone tried googling the term to see what comes up? Many posts explaining or talking about why the term is problematic. People downvoting are trying to ignore facts they dislike, but that doesn’t make facts go away. This even comes up https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23549563 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23549563
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    So what is the reason it would be offensive? Please explain.
    - mint2 5y ago
      Well according to the past hacker news thread I linked, it’s not racist but people find it sexist. That is also what many of the top google results for the term report
      - Grustaf 5y ago
        And why do they find it sexist?
        mint2 5y ago
        Because people come from a wide variety of backgrounds with a wide variety of experiences and knowledge that informs their opinions of things, so that one group of people such as many hacker news commenters may take the term to be non-controversial there are other large groups that have different experiences. wishing they didn’t won’t chance that fact. On hacker news it may seem like there is little difference in opinion, but keep in mind hacker news readers are a fairy like minded subsample of the population.
        Grustaf 5y ago
        No I mean in what sense could it possibly be “sexist”? It’s not demeaning to women, at least not more so than to men. It might be a bit raunchy, but in a gender neutral way.
        dekhn 5y ago
        it's sexist in the minds of people like ashley who want to take down apple. probably due to misinterpretation or misunderstanding on her part.
        mint2 5y ago
        Here is a somewhat wandering account of the term, showing it’s many sides. Enjoy. https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/11/02/360479744/why-corporate-executives-talk-about-opening-their-kimonos https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/11/02/360479744...
true_religion 5y ago
Kimonos are not historically gendered clothing. They’re basically t-shirts. The cut differs on men and women as a function of fashion, suitability to body type, and some formal rules (e.g. wearing a family crest historically made it a different kimono subtype). There was a period during the late 20th century where kimonos were only in fashion for women (men wore western styles except at weddings) but both historically and presently kimonos are for men and women. Random people on the street who say differently are probably just misinformed about a culture they don’t live in. Tying it back to the phrase used… this cultural dissonance is why it’s generally difficult to import phrases/metaphors from foreign cultures: people simply misunderstand you.
- anon9001 5y ago
  It's both racist and sexist that Ashley thinks kimonos are female attire and that opening a kimono is sexual. If your mental image of a kimono wearer is a vulnerable Japanese woman, as it may be if you are an American that's still reverberating with echos of WW2 racism, then Ashley's disgust makes some sense.
Chazprime 5y ago
> but it sounds rather problematic Why does it sound problematic? As others have already explained: it’s not an offensive phrase and kimonos are certainly not most commonly associated with women, so what’s your goal here? What’s the point of trying to find offense?
userbinator 5y ago
but ask some random person on the street and ask who wears kimonos and men will not be the answer. You're right, the answer is likely to be "Japanese".

by mint2 5y ago

Grustaf 5y ago

Why would it be offensive just because random Americans think that "women are the ones that wear kimono"? Even if it were true. For the puritanical American mind it might be offensive to even imagine nudity, but other than that I really don't get it.

mint2 5y ago
Because the context is American office settings? Look I don’t make American culture, I’m simply pointing out how a huge chunk of office workers will perceive it. Anyway, I can tell people can see this perspective, but want to pretend it’s invalid because they don’t like it. those against what they call “cancel” culture then reacting to opinions they deem unpopular by downvoting shows they don’t care about the principal of what they call “cancel” culture in general but only care that what they are used to is being “cancelled”. Has anyone tried googling the term to see what comes up? Many posts explaining or talking about why the term is problematic. People downvoting are trying to ignore facts they dislike, but that doesn’t make facts go away. This even comes up https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23549563 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23549563
- Grustaf 5y ago
  So what is the reason it would be offensive? Please explain.
  - mint2 5y ago
    Well according to the past hacker news thread I linked, it’s not racist but people find it sexist. That is also what many of the top google results for the term report
    - Grustaf 5y ago
      And why do they find it sexist?
      - mint2 5y ago
        Because people come from a wide variety of backgrounds with a wide variety of experiences and knowledge that informs their opinions of things, so that one group of people such as many hacker news commenters may take the term to be non-controversial there are other large groups that have different experiences. wishing they didn’t won’t chance that fact. On hacker news it may seem like there is little difference in opinion, but keep in mind hacker news readers are a fairy like minded subsample of the population.
        Grustaf 5y ago
        No I mean in what sense could it possibly be “sexist”? It’s not demeaning to women, at least not more so than to men. It might be a bit raunchy, but in a gender neutral way.
        dekhn 5y ago
        it's sexist in the minds of people like ashley who want to take down apple. probably due to misinterpretation or misunderstanding on her part.
        mint2 5y ago
        Here is a somewhat wandering account of the term, showing it’s many sides. Enjoy. https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/11/02/360479744/why-corporate-executives-talk-about-opening-their-kimonos https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/11/02/360479744...

true_religion 5y ago

Kimonos are not historically gendered clothing. They’re basically t-shirts. The cut differs on men and women as a function of fashion, suitability to body type, and some formal rules (e.g. wearing a family crest historically made it a different kimono subtype). There was a period during the late 20th century where kimonos were only in fashion for women (men wore western styles except at weddings) but both historically and presently kimonos are for men and women. Random people on the street who say differently are probably just misinformed about a culture they don’t live in. Tying it back to the phrase used… this cultural dissonance is why it’s generally difficult to import phrases/metaphors from foreign cultures: people simply misunderstand you.

anon9001 5y ago
It's both racist and sexist that Ashley thinks kimonos are female attire and that opening a kimono is sexual. If your mental image of a kimono wearer is a vulnerable Japanese woman, as it may be if you are an American that's still reverberating with echos of WW2 racism, then Ashley's disgust makes some sense.

Chazprime 5y ago

> but it sounds rather problematic Why does it sound problematic? As others have already explained: it’s not an offensive phrase and kimonos are certainly not most commonly associated with women, so what’s your goal here? What’s the point of trying to find offense?

userbinator 5y ago

but ask some random person on the street and ask who wears kimonos and men will not be the answer. You're right, the answer is likely to be "Japanese".