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This thread is political correctness madness gone wild. The phrase comes from Japanese<->American business relationships in the 70s through 90s. It is not sex

This thread is political correctness madness gone wild. The phrase comes from Japanese<->American business relationships in the 70s through 90s. It is not sexist or racist. It literally means providing transparency to internal affairs. > Strange to hear an Apple manager using it, but I wouldn't assume they were implying anything or had ill intent. "Look, I will let you invest a million dollars in Apple if you will sort of open the kimono on Xerox Parc." -- Steve Jobs, Xerox Parc, 1979 Under the Xerox Parc kimono, he found a prototype of the modern computer mouse. Ashley's source for why this is offensive and my source for why it's not are the same (from her screenshot): https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/open-kimono.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/open-kimono.asp Investopedia says the term is "offensive" but the only reason they cite is an NYT article from 1998: > New York Times reporter Stephen Greenhouse became one of the first to draw broad attention to the term when he noted that marketers at Microsoft (MSFT) had embraced it. At the time, he did caution that the use of open kimono may have originally indicated a disrespectful attitude toward the Japanese businessmen who were buying American companies. It wasn't even disrespectful because of race, it was because Japanese businessmen were buying lots of American companies and doing due diligence. Also, kimonos are worn by men, women, and children. In reality, Investopedia is probably labeling it "offensive" for people like me who know it is not offensive, but are unaware that using it could lead to problems.

mint2 5y ago
“Open the kimono” isn’t that another way of saying “open the article of clothing primarily worn by women”? To be honest this is the first time I’ve heard the term but it sounds rather problematic. Edit: explain downvotes and don’t downvote just because you don’t like the perspective. Sure there are men’s kimonos but ask some random person on the street and ask who wears kimonos and men will not be the answer.
- Grustaf 5y ago
  Why would it be offensive just because random Americans think that "women are the ones that wear kimono"? Even if it were true. For the puritanical American mind it might be offensive to even imagine nudity, but other than that I really don't get it.
  - mint2 5y ago
    Because the context is American office settings? Look I don’t make American culture, I’m simply pointing out how a huge chunk of office workers will perceive it. Anyway, I can tell people can see this perspective, but want to pretend it’s invalid because they don’t like it. those against what they call “cancel” culture then reacting to opinions they deem unpopular by downvoting shows they don’t care about the principal of what they call “cancel” culture in general but only care that what they are used to is being “cancelled”. Has anyone tried googling the term to see what comes up? Many posts explaining or talking about why the term is problematic. People downvoting are trying to ignore facts they dislike, but that doesn’t make facts go away. This even comes up https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23549563 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23549563
    - Grustaf 5y ago
      So what is the reason it would be offensive? Please explain.
      - mint2 5y ago
        Well according to the past hacker news thread I linked, it’s not racist but people find it sexist. That is also what many of the top google results for the term report
        Grustaf 5y ago
        And why do they find it sexist?
        mint2 5y ago
        Because people come from a wide variety of backgrounds with a wide variety of experiences and knowledge that informs their opinions of things, so that one group of people such as many hacker news commenters may take the term to be non-controversial there are other large groups that have different experiences. wishing they didn’t won’t chance that fact. On hacker news it may seem like there is little difference in opinion, but keep in mind hacker news readers are a fairy like minded subsample of the population.
- true_religion 5y ago
  Kimonos are not historically gendered clothing. They’re basically t-shirts. The cut differs on men and women as a function of fashion, suitability to body type, and some formal rules (e.g. wearing a family crest historically made it a different kimono subtype). There was a period during the late 20th century where kimonos were only in fashion for women (men wore western styles except at weddings) but both historically and presently kimonos are for men and women. Random people on the street who say differently are probably just misinformed about a culture they don’t live in. Tying it back to the phrase used… this cultural dissonance is why it’s generally difficult to import phrases/metaphors from foreign cultures: people simply misunderstand you.
  - anon9001 5y ago
    It's both racist and sexist that Ashley thinks kimonos are female attire and that opening a kimono is sexual. If your mental image of a kimono wearer is a vulnerable Japanese woman, as it may be if you are an American that's still reverberating with echos of WW2 racism, then Ashley's disgust makes some sense.
- Chazprime 5y ago
  > but it sounds rather problematic Why does it sound problematic? As others have already explained: it’s not an offensive phrase and kimonos are certainly not most commonly associated with women, so what’s your goal here? What’s the point of trying to find offense?
- userbinator 5y ago
  but ask some random person on the street and ask who wears kimonos and men will not be the answer. You're right, the answer is likely to be "Japanese".
unityByFreedom 5y ago
> In reality, Investopedia is probably labeling it "offensive" for people like me who know it is not offensive, but are unaware that using it could lead to problems. Nothing is objectively inoffensive. Whether something is or not depends on delivery and to whom it's delivered. Clearly "open kimono" does imply nakedness, so if you ask a person to be "open kimono" I can see how someone might be offended by that when just saying "be more open" would serve. I don't know the exact phrasing that this employee found offensive. It could just be a misunderstanding where a manager was saying they need to "open the kimono" on a product, such as by making an API that other people can use to easily interface it.
- anon9001 5y ago
  > Nothing is objectively inoffensive. Apparently not. There's almost 0 chance that managers at Apple got the colloquialism wrong and were using it in any sort of sexual or racist way. And if they were, Ashley would have surely brought it to light. This was not a misunderstanding. What happened here is that Ashley thought the term sounded offensive enough to weaponize, and so she did. From the Slack reaction emojis, and from our own sibling HN comments, we can tell other people also feel grossed out by the "open kimono" phrase. Particularly people who have never heard it before. The obvious conclusion is that the phrase just doesn't pass the vibe check in 2021, and no additional research is required. It sounds kind of old and maybe a little racist or sexist, so anyone that uses it needs to be called out, so we can erase this uncomfortable phrase from the tech lexicon. Problem solved? The real problem is that adopting such a niggardly view of workplace language leads to precisely the type of in-group/out-group division and discrimination that people like Ashley claim to be fighting against. Of course, if it works, she ends up in the in-group with power because she knows the rules. The in-group is then free to exclude other cultures because they're seen as crude or offensive or somehow "less than" the enlightened rule makers of civil society.
  - unityByFreedom 5y ago
    > There's almost 0 chance that managers at Apple got the colloquialism wrong and were using it in any sort of sexual or racist way. And if they were, Ashley would have surely brought it to light. This was not a misunderstanding. That sounds more like jumping to conclusions than objectivity. We're not going to know the truth on either side of this. The facts are, she felt harmed, reported it, started an investigation, threatened to publicize some details, and was let go. > What happened here is that Ashley thought the term sounded offensive enough to weaponize, and so she did. You think she pretended to be offended in order to raise a stink publicly, thereby risking her job over a false claim? That doesn't pass the smell test for me. More likely is she truthfully felt wronged, wanted it made right, and overstepped herself a bit along the way. > The real problem is that adopting such a niggardly view of workplace language leads to precisely the type of in-group/out-group division and discrimination that people like Ashley claim to be fighting against. Of course, if it works, she ends up in the in-group with power because she knows the rules. The in-group is then free to exclude other cultures because they're seen as crude or offensive or somehow "less than" the enlightened rule makers of civil society. Not everything's a conspiracy. Quit looking at the world in black and white. People are complex.
soundnote 5y ago
> This thread is political correctness madness gone wild. The purpose of political correctness is to go mad. Its whole point is to control others.

mint2 5y ago

“Open the kimono” isn’t that another way of saying “open the article of clothing primarily worn by women”? To be honest this is the first time I’ve heard the term but it sounds rather problematic. Edit: explain downvotes and don’t downvote just because you don’t like the perspective. Sure there are men’s kimonos but ask some random person on the street and ask who wears kimonos and men will not be the answer.

Grustaf 5y ago
Why would it be offensive just because random Americans think that "women are the ones that wear kimono"? Even if it were true. For the puritanical American mind it might be offensive to even imagine nudity, but other than that I really don't get it.
- mint2 5y ago
  Because the context is American office settings? Look I don’t make American culture, I’m simply pointing out how a huge chunk of office workers will perceive it. Anyway, I can tell people can see this perspective, but want to pretend it’s invalid because they don’t like it. those against what they call “cancel” culture then reacting to opinions they deem unpopular by downvoting shows they don’t care about the principal of what they call “cancel” culture in general but only care that what they are used to is being “cancelled”. Has anyone tried googling the term to see what comes up? Many posts explaining or talking about why the term is problematic. People downvoting are trying to ignore facts they dislike, but that doesn’t make facts go away. This even comes up https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23549563 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23549563
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    So what is the reason it would be offensive? Please explain.
    - mint2 5y ago
      Well according to the past hacker news thread I linked, it’s not racist but people find it sexist. That is also what many of the top google results for the term report
      - Grustaf 5y ago
        And why do they find it sexist?
        mint2 5y ago
        Because people come from a wide variety of backgrounds with a wide variety of experiences and knowledge that informs their opinions of things, so that one group of people such as many hacker news commenters may take the term to be non-controversial there are other large groups that have different experiences. wishing they didn’t won’t chance that fact. On hacker news it may seem like there is little difference in opinion, but keep in mind hacker news readers are a fairy like minded subsample of the population.
true_religion 5y ago
Kimonos are not historically gendered clothing. They’re basically t-shirts. The cut differs on men and women as a function of fashion, suitability to body type, and some formal rules (e.g. wearing a family crest historically made it a different kimono subtype). There was a period during the late 20th century where kimonos were only in fashion for women (men wore western styles except at weddings) but both historically and presently kimonos are for men and women. Random people on the street who say differently are probably just misinformed about a culture they don’t live in. Tying it back to the phrase used… this cultural dissonance is why it’s generally difficult to import phrases/metaphors from foreign cultures: people simply misunderstand you.
- anon9001 5y ago
  It's both racist and sexist that Ashley thinks kimonos are female attire and that opening a kimono is sexual. If your mental image of a kimono wearer is a vulnerable Japanese woman, as it may be if you are an American that's still reverberating with echos of WW2 racism, then Ashley's disgust makes some sense.
Chazprime 5y ago
> but it sounds rather problematic Why does it sound problematic? As others have already explained: it’s not an offensive phrase and kimonos are certainly not most commonly associated with women, so what’s your goal here? What’s the point of trying to find offense?
userbinator 5y ago
but ask some random person on the street and ask who wears kimonos and men will not be the answer. You're right, the answer is likely to be "Japanese".

unityByFreedom 5y ago

> In reality, Investopedia is probably labeling it "offensive" for people like me who know it is not offensive, but are unaware that using it could lead to problems. Nothing is objectively inoffensive. Whether something is or not depends on delivery and to whom it's delivered. Clearly "open kimono" does imply nakedness, so if you ask a person to be "open kimono" I can see how someone might be offended by that when just saying "be more open" would serve. I don't know the exact phrasing that this employee found offensive. It could just be a misunderstanding where a manager was saying they need to "open the kimono" on a product, such as by making an API that other people can use to easily interface it.

anon9001 5y ago
> Nothing is objectively inoffensive. Apparently not. There's almost 0 chance that managers at Apple got the colloquialism wrong and were using it in any sort of sexual or racist way. And if they were, Ashley would have surely brought it to light. This was not a misunderstanding. What happened here is that Ashley thought the term sounded offensive enough to weaponize, and so she did. From the Slack reaction emojis, and from our own sibling HN comments, we can tell other people also feel grossed out by the "open kimono" phrase. Particularly people who have never heard it before. The obvious conclusion is that the phrase just doesn't pass the vibe check in 2021, and no additional research is required. It sounds kind of old and maybe a little racist or sexist, so anyone that uses it needs to be called out, so we can erase this uncomfortable phrase from the tech lexicon. Problem solved? The real problem is that adopting such a niggardly view of workplace language leads to precisely the type of in-group/out-group division and discrimination that people like Ashley claim to be fighting against. Of course, if it works, she ends up in the in-group with power because she knows the rules. The in-group is then free to exclude other cultures because they're seen as crude or offensive or somehow "less than" the enlightened rule makers of civil society.
- unityByFreedom 5y ago
  > There's almost 0 chance that managers at Apple got the colloquialism wrong and were using it in any sort of sexual or racist way. And if they were, Ashley would have surely brought it to light. This was not a misunderstanding. That sounds more like jumping to conclusions than objectivity. We're not going to know the truth on either side of this. The facts are, she felt harmed, reported it, started an investigation, threatened to publicize some details, and was let go. > What happened here is that Ashley thought the term sounded offensive enough to weaponize, and so she did. You think she pretended to be offended in order to raise a stink publicly, thereby risking her job over a false claim? That doesn't pass the smell test for me. More likely is she truthfully felt wronged, wanted it made right, and overstepped herself a bit along the way. > The real problem is that adopting such a niggardly view of workplace language leads to precisely the type of in-group/out-group division and discrimination that people like Ashley claim to be fighting against. Of course, if it works, she ends up in the in-group with power because she knows the rules. The in-group is then free to exclude other cultures because they're seen as crude or offensive or somehow "less than" the enlightened rule makers of civil society. Not everything's a conspiracy. Quit looking at the world in black and white. People are complex.

soundnote 5y ago

> This thread is political correctness madness gone wild. The purpose of political correctness is to go mad. Its whole point is to control others.