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Yeah. I think she has real concerns that need to be addressed to make her whole. I'm not sure this is "the world needs to know"-level stuff though. Good on her

Yeah. I think she has real concerns that need to be addressed to make her whole. I'm not sure this is "the world needs to know"-level stuff though. Good on her for speaking her mind anyway. The "open kimono" stuff sounded bad to me (edit: depends on the context [2]). At the same time, she is giving these veiled threats to Apple while an investigation appears to be underway, > .... also makes me wonder what would happen if I shared the incidents [redacted] investigated and said weren't "policy violations" like [redacted] [1] I can see why Apple would want to part ways with that. It's standard for everyone to keep their mouths shut while an investigation is underway. If you don't understand and follow that contract then you're tainting the investigation. [1] https://www.ashleygjovik.com/uploads/1/3/7/0/137008339/published/screen-shot-2021-08-10-at-4-12-30-am_3.png https://www.ashleygjovik.com/uploads/1/3/7/0/137008339/publi... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28478276 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28478276

PragmaticPulp 5y ago
The "open kimono" thing is inexcusable in 2021, but I don't think it's anything more than someone cluelessly using an outdated catchphrase. It was semi-common business lingo in the early 2000s in certain circles: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/open-kimono.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/open-kimono.asp Self-help guru Tim Ferriss even copyrighted the phrase and made a big deal about publicizing a $10,000 seminar in his "Opening the Kimono" event in 2011: https://tim.blog/2011/04/12/opening-the-kimono/ https://tim.blog/2011/04/12/opening-the-kimono/ Then the phrase quickly died, as it should have. Strange to hear an Apple manager using it, but I wouldn't assume they were implying anything or had ill intent.
- unityByFreedom 5y ago
  > Strange to hear an Apple manager using it, but I wouldn't assume they were implying anything or had ill intent. Yes, I can imagine oblivious men repeating it if they did not realize it could be interpreted sexually. However you do deserve to be called out if you continue using it while feigning ignorance. Your response should simply be, "oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize the implications of this phrase. I'll stop using it." And if you can't do that then HR should get involved. It sounds like that is what was happening. Then she threatened to make her case more widely known and Apple decided, "alright, it's better if you're not employed here while you pursue that."
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- anon9001 5y ago
  This thread is political correctness madness gone wild. The phrase comes from Japanese<->American business relationships in the 70s through 90s. It is not sexist or racist. It literally means providing transparency to internal affairs. > Strange to hear an Apple manager using it, but I wouldn't assume they were implying anything or had ill intent. "Look, I will let you invest a million dollars in Apple if you will sort of open the kimono on Xerox Parc." -- Steve Jobs, Xerox Parc, 1979 Under the Xerox Parc kimono, he found a prototype of the modern computer mouse. Ashley's source for why this is offensive and my source for why it's not are the same (from her screenshot): https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/open-kimono.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/open-kimono.asp Investopedia says the term is "offensive" but the only reason they cite is an NYT article from 1998: > New York Times reporter Stephen Greenhouse became one of the first to draw broad attention to the term when he noted that marketers at Microsoft (MSFT) had embraced it. At the time, he did caution that the use of open kimono may have originally indicated a disrespectful attitude toward the Japanese businessmen who were buying American companies. It wasn't even disrespectful because of race, it was because Japanese businessmen were buying lots of American companies and doing due diligence. Also, kimonos are worn by men, women, and children. In reality, Investopedia is probably labeling it "offensive" for people like me who know it is not offensive, but are unaware that using it could lead to problems.
  - mint2 5y ago
    “Open the kimono” isn’t that another way of saying “open the article of clothing primarily worn by women”? To be honest this is the first time I’ve heard the term but it sounds rather problematic. Edit: explain downvotes and don’t downvote just because you don’t like the perspective. Sure there are men’s kimonos but ask some random person on the street and ask who wears kimonos and men will not be the answer.
    - Grustaf 5y ago
      Why would it be offensive just because random Americans think that "women are the ones that wear kimono"? Even if it were true. For the puritanical American mind it might be offensive to even imagine nudity, but other than that I really don't get it.
- Grustaf 5y ago
  Why would "open kimono" be "inexcusable"? It just means "without hiding anything". Like almost any abstract expression, you're taking something concrete and using it in an abstract sense, it doesn't mean she should actually be naked, even as an innuendo. I really don't understand why it would be offensive. Is it because kimonos are (originally) an "ethnic" (i.e. non-American) thing? Or is it related to the American panic about nudity?
  - hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
    It's because some have deemed that anything that has origins from a foreign culture is off limits. The one that gets me the most is someone taking the phrase "Chinese wall" as being offensive. The phrase means a hard separation of business units in some companies, such as analysts evaluating companies and investment banking units trying to win business from those companies. I always took it to mean "Well, there is one country that's rather famous for having an incredibly extensive barrier that serves to separate 2 areas." I literally have no understanding of how this could even be considered racist, if anything it's praising an incredible human feat and using it metaphorically.
- himinlomax 5y ago
  You do realize that kimonos are not exclusively worn by women? Hard to see how that's sexisme without that misconception.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

The "open kimono" thing is inexcusable in 2021, but I don't think it's anything more than someone cluelessly using an outdated catchphrase. It was semi-common business lingo in the early 2000s in certain circles: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/open-kimono.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/open-kimono.asp Self-help guru Tim Ferriss even copyrighted the phrase and made a big deal about publicizing a $10,000 seminar in his "Opening the Kimono" event in 2011: https://tim.blog/2011/04/12/opening-the-kimono/ https://tim.blog/2011/04/12/opening-the-kimono/ Then the phrase quickly died, as it should have. Strange to hear an Apple manager using it, but I wouldn't assume they were implying anything or had ill intent.

unityByFreedom 5y ago
> Strange to hear an Apple manager using it, but I wouldn't assume they were implying anything or had ill intent. Yes, I can imagine oblivious men repeating it if they did not realize it could be interpreted sexually. However you do deserve to be called out if you continue using it while feigning ignorance. Your response should simply be, "oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize the implications of this phrase. I'll stop using it." And if you can't do that then HR should get involved. It sounds like that is what was happening. Then she threatened to make her case more widely known and Apple decided, "alright, it's better if you're not employed here while you pursue that."
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
anon9001 5y ago
This thread is political correctness madness gone wild. The phrase comes from Japanese<->American business relationships in the 70s through 90s. It is not sexist or racist. It literally means providing transparency to internal affairs. > Strange to hear an Apple manager using it, but I wouldn't assume they were implying anything or had ill intent. "Look, I will let you invest a million dollars in Apple if you will sort of open the kimono on Xerox Parc." -- Steve Jobs, Xerox Parc, 1979 Under the Xerox Parc kimono, he found a prototype of the modern computer mouse. Ashley's source for why this is offensive and my source for why it's not are the same (from her screenshot): https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/open-kimono.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/open-kimono.asp Investopedia says the term is "offensive" but the only reason they cite is an NYT article from 1998: > New York Times reporter Stephen Greenhouse became one of the first to draw broad attention to the term when he noted that marketers at Microsoft (MSFT) had embraced it. At the time, he did caution that the use of open kimono may have originally indicated a disrespectful attitude toward the Japanese businessmen who were buying American companies. It wasn't even disrespectful because of race, it was because Japanese businessmen were buying lots of American companies and doing due diligence. Also, kimonos are worn by men, women, and children. In reality, Investopedia is probably labeling it "offensive" for people like me who know it is not offensive, but are unaware that using it could lead to problems.
- mint2 5y ago
  “Open the kimono” isn’t that another way of saying “open the article of clothing primarily worn by women”? To be honest this is the first time I’ve heard the term but it sounds rather problematic. Edit: explain downvotes and don’t downvote just because you don’t like the perspective. Sure there are men’s kimonos but ask some random person on the street and ask who wears kimonos and men will not be the answer.
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    Why would it be offensive just because random Americans think that "women are the ones that wear kimono"? Even if it were true. For the puritanical American mind it might be offensive to even imagine nudity, but other than that I really don't get it.
Grustaf 5y ago
Why would "open kimono" be "inexcusable"? It just means "without hiding anything". Like almost any abstract expression, you're taking something concrete and using it in an abstract sense, it doesn't mean she should actually be naked, even as an innuendo. I really don't understand why it would be offensive. Is it because kimonos are (originally) an "ethnic" (i.e. non-American) thing? Or is it related to the American panic about nudity?
- hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
  It's because some have deemed that anything that has origins from a foreign culture is off limits. The one that gets me the most is someone taking the phrase "Chinese wall" as being offensive. The phrase means a hard separation of business units in some companies, such as analysts evaluating companies and investment banking units trying to win business from those companies. I always took it to mean "Well, there is one country that's rather famous for having an incredibly extensive barrier that serves to separate 2 areas." I literally have no understanding of how this could even be considered racist, if anything it's praising an incredible human feat and using it metaphorically.
himinlomax 5y ago
You do realize that kimonos are not exclusively worn by women? Hard to see how that's sexisme without that misconception.