5 ms·

Police have accused Ms Chow of inciting subversion, her lawyers said. The absolute genius of the CCP isn't that they're cracking down on Hong Kong and domestic

Police have accused Ms Chow of inciting subversion, her lawyers said. The absolute genius of the CCP isn't that they're cracking down on Hong Kong and domestic democratic movements. The brilliant part is spending the last forty years forging a culture that approves of it. Many Westerners perceive the Chinese populace as ignorant of what their government does. That is not true. Speak to some international students some time. They're fully aware of what the CCP does, and they agree with it. To them, national unity and tranquility really is worth throwing dissidents and activists into prison or just disappearing them.

Waterluvian 5y ago
Indeed. Look at how much China has evolved since WWII and you can see how many could believe that the ends justify the means.
- SilverRed 5y ago
  The last few years of the US would certainly validate and solidify those beliefs.
benrbray 5y ago
Indeed. I have an otherwise quite reasonable friend whose stance on Xinjiang province is: "The camps aren't real, it's just an exaggeration. And if they're real, it's because the Xinjiang people are there voluntarily. And if they're not there voluntarily, it's probably better anyway, since it would be a really bad thing long-term to have a large minority of people that is not culturally united with the rest of China. It's not pretty but it's for the common good."
- winrid 5y ago
  How do we know your friend is wrong about their existence? I can say that at least, it's hard not to be surprised by such opinions. I've been to Xinjiang and know people that live there. Pretty sure you could live your whole life without seeing said camps. I also know people that have had family members die from attacks from the Uighurs. If real, I suspect the CCP started the camps after the terrorist attacks - if you look up cities like Korla you'll know what I mean - the security there is insane, complete with officers with submachine guns escorting school children. I didn't have the balls to take a picture...
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > How do we know your friend is wrong about their existence? Because if they're right, there's no way to know anything about the world. Even the PRC government now admits the camps exist, and their propaganda approach has moved on from outright denial to other tactics.
    - winrid 5y ago
      > Even the PRC government now admits the camps exist Oh neat, I missed that. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/22/from-denial-to-pride-how-china-changed-its-language-on-xinjiangs-camps https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/...
      - tablespoon 5y ago
        > Oh neat, I missed that. I think that was pretty impossible to miss if you were following the story at all. And if you weren't following the story, why comment on it?
        winrid 5y ago
        I never said I was following the story. I just traveled there and have Chinese friends/family in the US and in China. That's why I commented.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
academia_hack 5y ago
This is only half true. Many of my Chinese friends, especially affluent ones who have spent time abroad, both know and hate what Xi is doing to their country. Behind closed doors and or while walking in parks in Shanghai and Beijing I've spoken with people who still mourn friends lost in Tiananmen, who found Xi's removal of term limits deeply unsettling, and who dream of religious freedom in Tibet and Xinjiang. China is full of a great many intelligent and aware people who are working hard to reclaim their country. Lots of the most progressive folks I know are working within the government, making day-to-day decisions as low level bureaucrats to dull the sharp edge of totalitarianism wherever they can. Perhaps a modest number of Chinese people genuinely don't care much for anything other than stability and profit. However, the heart of China still beats for independence and many good people are waiting for their chance to reclaim the country.
- Steltek 5y ago
  History is not optimistic about quiet pushes for progressivism and civil rights. This is not even a western bias: if you really want change, it's going get rough before it gets better.

Waterluvian 5y ago

Indeed. Look at how much China has evolved since WWII and you can see how many could believe that the ends justify the means.

SilverRed 5y ago
The last few years of the US would certainly validate and solidify those beliefs.

benrbray 5y ago

Indeed. I have an otherwise quite reasonable friend whose stance on Xinjiang province is: "The camps aren't real, it's just an exaggeration. And if they're real, it's because the Xinjiang people are there voluntarily. And if they're not there voluntarily, it's probably better anyway, since it would be a really bad thing long-term to have a large minority of people that is not culturally united with the rest of China. It's not pretty but it's for the common good."

winrid 5y ago
How do we know your friend is wrong about their existence? I can say that at least, it's hard not to be surprised by such opinions. I've been to Xinjiang and know people that live there. Pretty sure you could live your whole life without seeing said camps. I also know people that have had family members die from attacks from the Uighurs. If real, I suspect the CCP started the camps after the terrorist attacks - if you look up cities like Korla you'll know what I mean - the security there is insane, complete with officers with submachine guns escorting school children. I didn't have the balls to take a picture...
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > How do we know your friend is wrong about their existence? Because if they're right, there's no way to know anything about the world. Even the PRC government now admits the camps exist, and their propaganda approach has moved on from outright denial to other tactics.
  - winrid 5y ago
    > Even the PRC government now admits the camps exist Oh neat, I missed that. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/22/from-denial-to-pride-how-china-changed-its-language-on-xinjiangs-camps https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/...
    - tablespoon 5y ago
      > Oh neat, I missed that. I think that was pretty impossible to miss if you were following the story at all. And if you weren't following the story, why comment on it?
      - winrid 5y ago
        I never said I was following the story. I just traveled there and have Chinese friends/family in the US and in China. That's why I commented.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

academia_hack 5y ago

This is only half true. Many of my Chinese friends, especially affluent ones who have spent time abroad, both know and hate what Xi is doing to their country. Behind closed doors and or while walking in parks in Shanghai and Beijing I've spoken with people who still mourn friends lost in Tiananmen, who found Xi's removal of term limits deeply unsettling, and who dream of religious freedom in Tibet and Xinjiang. China is full of a great many intelligent and aware people who are working hard to reclaim their country. Lots of the most progressive folks I know are working within the government, making day-to-day decisions as low level bureaucrats to dull the sharp edge of totalitarianism wherever they can. Perhaps a modest number of Chinese people genuinely don't care much for anything other than stability and profit. However, the heart of China still beats for independence and many good people are waiting for their chance to reclaim the country.

Steltek 5y ago
History is not optimistic about quiet pushes for progressivism and civil rights. This is not even a western bias: if you really want change, it's going get rough before it gets better.