7 ms·

But the COVID vaccine does provide a society-wide public health benefit. Our best available data indicates that it reduces the risk of transmission, even for De

But the COVID vaccine does provide a society-wide public health benefit. Our best available data indicates that it reduces the risk of transmission, even for Delta [1]. 1. https://www.acsh.org/news/2021/09/07/covid-19-vaccines-prevent-delta-transmission-yet-another-study-shows-15787 https://www.acsh.org/news/2021/09/07/covid-19-vaccines-preve...

walterbell 5y ago
Reducing is not the same as stopping, which is the definition of sterilizing vaccines, which is the common layman perception of "vaccine", including your original example of school-mandated vaccines. Fortunately, the CDC's Sept. 2021 updated definition makes it clear that non-sterilizing Covid vaccines should not be conflated with the transmission-stopping track record of sterilizing vaccines (e.g. MMR) mandated for school & travel.
- lalaland1125 5y ago
  Reducing is still a society-wide public health benefit.
  - walterbell 5y ago
    Reducing does not have the same scaling effect as stopping, e.g. society must continue to pay an ongoing price for mitigations. Stopping means society can move on after a one-time vaccine cost. There are intranasal (e.g. inhaler) vaccines under development, which may provide nasal/mucosal antibodies. Until those are available, recovery from natural infection will provide both nasal/mucosal and blood/serum antibodies. This path is available to both the vaccinated and unvaccinated.
    - lalaland1125 5y ago
      For things defined by exponential growth like viruses, you don't have to stop them 100%. All you have to do is get the growth factor below 1.0 and the virus will die out as it can't infect enough people to stay alive.
      - walterbell 5y ago
        Why hasn't that happened already in countries with very high vaccine rates, like Israel?
        lalaland1125 5y ago
        Israel's vaccination rate isn't that high? They are only 60% vaccinated.
        walterbell 5y ago
        https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628471/highly-vaccinated-israel-is-seeing-a-dramatic-surge-in-new-covid-cases-heres-why https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628... > Israel was the first country on Earth to fully vaccinate a majority of its citizens against COVID-19. Now it has one of the world's highest daily infection rates — an average of nearly 7,500 confirmed cases a day, double what it was two weeks ago. Nearly one in every 150 people in Israel today has the virus. Not a great advertisement for non-sterilizing vaccines.
        endless1234 5y ago
        Why ignore the GPs argument? Israel has vaccinated 61% of their population. Of course the 39% who aren't vaccinated will continue to spread it like before, even more so if restrictions are lifted.
        over_the_raibow 5y ago
        >Of course the 39% who aren't vaccinated will continue to spread it like before Why do you lie, vaccinated people spread the virus just as much
        jtc331 5y ago
        The 61% is misleading because it includes children ineligible for the vaccine. My undertow that they’ve vaccinated something like 80% of adults (one of the highest on the world).
    - konspence 5y ago
      Just admit that you're antivax and let's move on. And yes, "I am not always against vaccines" does not count.
    - simonh 5y ago
      Meanwhile here in the UK, with very high vaccination rates, we've been out of lockdown for a while now, are very much getting back to normal life and have low hospitalisation rates. If that's not a 'society wide benefit' I'd like to know what is. We may need further short tactical lockdowns, and are considering booster shots for the elderly, but the situation here is night and day compared to the US and many other countries thanks to an effective vaccination programme with broad popular support. It's amazing to me how the political culture of the right has diverged between the US and Europe, and here in the UK particularly. For us responsible behaviour in public and prompt vaccination are conservative touchstones, not exclusively conservative of course but very much seen as not just compatible with conservatism but flowing directly from it's basic principles. What's happened to Republicanism in the US is confusing, and rather horrifying from that perspective.
      - jtbayly 5y ago
        You might want to read up on Israel before you assume it is because of the high rate of vaccination that you happen to be in a valley of infections again.
        simonh 5y ago
        Oh we have plenty of infections, tens of thousands of cases per day, but we have much fewer deaths because infected vaccinated people rarely get sick and if they do are extremely unlikely to die. Early this year we were seeing similar rates of new infections per day, but about a thousand people were dying every day. Nowadays the death rate is about a tenth of that, concentrated among the remaining unvaccinated population. Israel seems to be having a similar experience, people are catching the virus but those that are vaccinated aren't dying as a result. They're introducing mask mandates and considering tactical lockdowns to try and protect the unvaccinated population. We may need to do the same, nevertheless the best way to protect people who can't be vaccinated is to vaccinate everyone who can be.
    - ImPostingOnHN 5y ago
      whether or not the "scaling effect" is the same is irrelevant to whether or not the vaccine provides a societal benefit, which it does whether or not society must continue to pay an ongoing price for mitigations is irrelevant to whether or not the vaccine provides a societal benefit, which it does whether or not society can move on after a one-time vaccine cost is irrelevant to whether or not the vaccine provides a societal benefit, which it does the goalposts were set at "provides a societal benefit", which it does
nradov 5y ago
Vaccination likely reduces the chance of transmission in any single interaction. However even with a high level of vaccination all of us can expect to be occasionally exposed to the virus no matter what steps we take. The benefits of vaccination are really more about protecting yourself from severe symptoms, and preventing demand spikes on the healthcare system. https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immunity-not-possible-astrazeneca-developer-2021-8?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immu...
whater 5y ago
Many countries with very high vaccination rates, Spain and the UK for example, have much higher case numbers this summer than last: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases And testing rates are probably even lower now that many people have been vaccinated. This argument is not going to convince the unvaccinated, who are tired of incoherent "scientific" information that changes every month. The field of virology is apparently in its infancy.
- marcus_holmes 5y ago
  > UK for example, have much higher case numbers this summer than last but much lower hospitalisation rates [0]. Which is the key point of "flattening the curve" if you remember. We're not going to get out of lockdown measures until the hospitals can cope with the load, and the vaccinations are reducing the load on hospitals. Get vaccinated now. https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
- mnd999 5y ago
  Anyone expecting the scientific establishment (or in fact anyone) to have a clear, consistent and coherent picture right the way through a pandemic caused by a novel virus is being unrealistic. The advice changes as we know better what we’re up against and anyone who expects to have all the answers is, frankly a fool. Look at the data, follow the science and do the best you can.
  - lpyt 5y ago
    Corona viruses aren't novel, the common cold is one of them. There were no accurate spread models in 2020, no studies how masks would affect the spread of the common cold. There was ridiculous advice that the famous droplets would sink to the ground before covering a distance > 1.5 meters, that masks would not help at all and much more. Now they admit that the virus is airborne! Sorry, #FollowTheScience slogans and calling others fools does not help.
    - throwaway210222 5y ago
blagie 5y ago
Even for delta? The actual study the article claims the summarize: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00460-6/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3... Find the word 'delta' in the text of the actual study. It ain't there. And look at the dates of the study. Most of the data is pre-delta. Your linked ACSH article simply fabricates a conclusion based on no evidence. The scientific establishment sickens me here. The goal is to get people to vaccinate, which is reasonable enough. The outcome is the opposite, though. The lies are common enough and transparent enough that the whole establishment loses credibility, and a huge swath of the world doesn't believe it about vaccines, climate change, and a slew of other issues.
- op00to 5y ago
  Yes, even for delta.
- bluGill 5y ago
  At least half as many vaccinated people get covid, not getting it means you don't spread it. And of those that do get it, they kick it a lot sooner and thus are not spreading it for as long. But no, if it isn't 100% perfect you have decided it is worthless.
  - iluvcommunism 5y ago
    It is a proven fact now that vaccinated folks spread just as much as non-vaccinated.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - tomrod 5y ago
      Cite your source, please.
      - iluvcommunism 5y ago
Khaine 5y ago
So does the flu vaccine, but we don’t mandate that
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

walterbell 5y ago

Reducing is not the same as stopping, which is the definition of sterilizing vaccines, which is the common layman perception of "vaccine", including your original example of school-mandated vaccines. Fortunately, the CDC's Sept. 2021 updated definition makes it clear that non-sterilizing Covid vaccines should not be conflated with the transmission-stopping track record of sterilizing vaccines (e.g. MMR) mandated for school & travel.

lalaland1125 5y ago
Reducing is still a society-wide public health benefit.
- walterbell 5y ago
  Reducing does not have the same scaling effect as stopping, e.g. society must continue to pay an ongoing price for mitigations. Stopping means society can move on after a one-time vaccine cost. There are intranasal (e.g. inhaler) vaccines under development, which may provide nasal/mucosal antibodies. Until those are available, recovery from natural infection will provide both nasal/mucosal and blood/serum antibodies. This path is available to both the vaccinated and unvaccinated.
  - lalaland1125 5y ago
    For things defined by exponential growth like viruses, you don't have to stop them 100%. All you have to do is get the growth factor below 1.0 and the virus will die out as it can't infect enough people to stay alive.
    - walterbell 5y ago
      Why hasn't that happened already in countries with very high vaccine rates, like Israel?
      - lalaland1125 5y ago
        Israel's vaccination rate isn't that high? They are only 60% vaccinated.
        walterbell 5y ago
        https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628471/highly-vaccinated-israel-is-seeing-a-dramatic-surge-in-new-covid-cases-heres-why https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628... > Israel was the first country on Earth to fully vaccinate a majority of its citizens against COVID-19. Now it has one of the world's highest daily infection rates — an average of nearly 7,500 confirmed cases a day, double what it was two weeks ago. Nearly one in every 150 people in Israel today has the virus. Not a great advertisement for non-sterilizing vaccines.
        endless1234 5y ago
        Why ignore the GPs argument? Israel has vaccinated 61% of their population. Of course the 39% who aren't vaccinated will continue to spread it like before, even more so if restrictions are lifted.
        over_the_raibow 5y ago
        >Of course the 39% who aren't vaccinated will continue to spread it like before Why do you lie, vaccinated people spread the virus just as much
        jtc331 5y ago
        The 61% is misleading because it includes children ineligible for the vaccine. My undertow that they’ve vaccinated something like 80% of adults (one of the highest on the world).
  - konspence 5y ago
    Just admit that you're antivax and let's move on. And yes, "I am not always against vaccines" does not count.
  - simonh 5y ago
    Meanwhile here in the UK, with very high vaccination rates, we've been out of lockdown for a while now, are very much getting back to normal life and have low hospitalisation rates. If that's not a 'society wide benefit' I'd like to know what is. We may need further short tactical lockdowns, and are considering booster shots for the elderly, but the situation here is night and day compared to the US and many other countries thanks to an effective vaccination programme with broad popular support. It's amazing to me how the political culture of the right has diverged between the US and Europe, and here in the UK particularly. For us responsible behaviour in public and prompt vaccination are conservative touchstones, not exclusively conservative of course but very much seen as not just compatible with conservatism but flowing directly from it's basic principles. What's happened to Republicanism in the US is confusing, and rather horrifying from that perspective.
    - jtbayly 5y ago
      You might want to read up on Israel before you assume it is because of the high rate of vaccination that you happen to be in a valley of infections again.
      - simonh 5y ago
        Oh we have plenty of infections, tens of thousands of cases per day, but we have much fewer deaths because infected vaccinated people rarely get sick and if they do are extremely unlikely to die. Early this year we were seeing similar rates of new infections per day, but about a thousand people were dying every day. Nowadays the death rate is about a tenth of that, concentrated among the remaining unvaccinated population. Israel seems to be having a similar experience, people are catching the virus but those that are vaccinated aren't dying as a result. They're introducing mask mandates and considering tactical lockdowns to try and protect the unvaccinated population. We may need to do the same, nevertheless the best way to protect people who can't be vaccinated is to vaccinate everyone who can be.
  - ImPostingOnHN 5y ago
    whether or not the "scaling effect" is the same is irrelevant to whether or not the vaccine provides a societal benefit, which it does whether or not society must continue to pay an ongoing price for mitigations is irrelevant to whether or not the vaccine provides a societal benefit, which it does whether or not society can move on after a one-time vaccine cost is irrelevant to whether or not the vaccine provides a societal benefit, which it does the goalposts were set at "provides a societal benefit", which it does

nradov 5y ago

Vaccination likely reduces the chance of transmission in any single interaction. However even with a high level of vaccination all of us can expect to be occasionally exposed to the virus no matter what steps we take. The benefits of vaccination are really more about protecting yourself from severe symptoms, and preventing demand spikes on the healthcare system. https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immunity-not-possible-astrazeneca-developer-2021-8?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immu...

whater 5y ago

Many countries with very high vaccination rates, Spain and the UK for example, have much higher case numbers this summer than last: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases And testing rates are probably even lower now that many people have been vaccinated. This argument is not going to convince the unvaccinated, who are tired of incoherent "scientific" information that changes every month. The field of virology is apparently in its infancy.

marcus_holmes 5y ago
> UK for example, have much higher case numbers this summer than last but much lower hospitalisation rates [0]. Which is the key point of "flattening the curve" if you remember. We're not going to get out of lockdown measures until the hospitals can cope with the load, and the vaccinations are reducing the load on hospitals. Get vaccinated now. https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
mnd999 5y ago
Anyone expecting the scientific establishment (or in fact anyone) to have a clear, consistent and coherent picture right the way through a pandemic caused by a novel virus is being unrealistic. The advice changes as we know better what we’re up against and anyone who expects to have all the answers is, frankly a fool. Look at the data, follow the science and do the best you can.
- lpyt 5y ago
  Corona viruses aren't novel, the common cold is one of them. There were no accurate spread models in 2020, no studies how masks would affect the spread of the common cold. There was ridiculous advice that the famous droplets would sink to the ground before covering a distance > 1.5 meters, that masks would not help at all and much more. Now they admit that the virus is airborne! Sorry, #FollowTheScience slogans and calling others fools does not help.
  - throwaway210222 5y ago

blagie 5y ago

Even for delta? The actual study the article claims the summarize: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00460-6/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3... Find the word 'delta' in the text of the actual study. It ain't there. And look at the dates of the study. Most of the data is pre-delta. Your linked ACSH article simply fabricates a conclusion based on no evidence. The scientific establishment sickens me here. The goal is to get people to vaccinate, which is reasonable enough. The outcome is the opposite, though. The lies are common enough and transparent enough that the whole establishment loses credibility, and a huge swath of the world doesn't believe it about vaccines, climate change, and a slew of other issues.

op00to 5y ago
Yes, even for delta.
bluGill 5y ago
At least half as many vaccinated people get covid, not getting it means you don't spread it. And of those that do get it, they kick it a lot sooner and thus are not spreading it for as long. But no, if it isn't 100% perfect you have decided it is worthless.
- iluvcommunism 5y ago
  It is a proven fact now that vaccinated folks spread just as much as non-vaccinated.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - tomrod 5y ago
    Cite your source, please.
    - iluvcommunism 5y ago

Khaine 5y ago

So does the flu vaccine, but we don’t mandate that

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]