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Why would that change liability requirements? My fundamental question is that schools already have tons of vaccine requirements, so why should this one be cons
by lalaland1125 5y ago
Why would that change liability requirements?
My fundamental question is that schools already have tons of vaccine requirements, so why should this one be considered special?
- walterbell 5y agoBecause it alters the risk/benefit calculus. A sterilizing vaccine that stops transmission in its tracks, has a clear public health benefit to every part of society, even if there are risks. A non-sterilizing vaccine does not provide that society-wide public health benefit, leaving the employer to bear risks without benefit.
- lalaland1125 5y agoBut the COVID vaccine does provide a society-wide public health benefit. Our best available data indicates that it reduces the risk of transmission, even for Delta [1]. 1. https://www.acsh.org/news/2021/09/07/covid-19-vaccines-prevent-delta-transmission-yet-another-study-shows-15787 https://www.acsh.org/news/2021/09/07/covid-19-vaccines-preve...
- walterbell 5y agoReducing is not the same as stopping, which is the definition of sterilizing vaccines, which is the common layman perception of "vaccine", including your original example of school-mandated vaccines. Fortunately, the CDC's Sept. 2021 updated definition makes it clear that non-sterilizing Covid vaccines should not be conflated with the transmission-stopping track record of sterilizing vaccines (e.g. MMR) mandated for school & travel.
- lalaland1125 5y agoReducing is still a society-wide public health benefit.
- walterbell 5y agoReducing does not have the same scaling effect as stopping, e.g. society must continue to pay an ongoing price for mitigations. Stopping means society can move on after a one-time vaccine cost. There are intranasal (e.g. inhaler) vaccines under development, which may provide nasal/mucosal antibodies. Until those are available, recovery from natural infection will provide both nasal/mucosal and blood/serum antibodies. This path is available to both the vaccinated and unvaccinated.
- lalaland1125 5y agoFor things defined by exponential growth like viruses, you don't have to stop them 100%. All you have to do is get the growth factor below 1.0 and the virus will die out as it can't infect enough people to stay alive.
- walterbell 5y agoWhy hasn't that happened already in countries with very high vaccine rates, like Israel?
- lalaland1125 5y agoIsrael's vaccination rate isn't that high? They are only 60% vaccinated.
- walterbell 5y agohttps://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628471/highly-vaccinated-israel-is-seeing-a-dramatic-surge-in-new-covid-cases-heres-why https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628... > Israel was the first country on Earth to fully vaccinate a majority of its citizens against COVID-19. Now it has one of the world's highest daily infection rates — an average of nearly 7,500 confirmed cases a day, double what it was two weeks ago. Nearly one in every 150 people in Israel today has the virus. Not a great advertisement for non-sterilizing vaccines.
- nradov 5y agoVaccination likely reduces the chance of transmission in any single interaction. However even with a high level of vaccination all of us can expect to be occasionally exposed to the virus no matter what steps we take. The benefits of vaccination are really more about protecting yourself from severe symptoms, and preventing demand spikes on the healthcare system. https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immunity-not-possible-astrazeneca-developer-2021-8?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immu...
- whater 5y agoMany countries with very high vaccination rates, Spain and the UK for example, have much higher case numbers this summer than last: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases And testing rates are probably even lower now that many people have been vaccinated. This argument is not going to convince the unvaccinated, who are tired of incoherent "scientific" information that changes every month. The field of virology is apparently in its infancy.
- marcus_holmes 5y ago> UK for example, have much higher case numbers this summer than last but much lower hospitalisation rates [0]. Which is the key point of "flattening the curve" if you remember. We're not going to get out of lockdown measures until the hospitals can cope with the load, and the vaccinations are reducing the load on hospitals. Get vaccinated now. https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
- mnd999 5y agoAnyone expecting the scientific establishment (or in fact anyone) to have a clear, consistent and coherent picture right the way through a pandemic caused by a novel virus is being unrealistic. The advice changes as we know better what we’re up against and anyone who expects to have all the answers is, frankly a fool. Look at the data, follow the science and do the best you can.
- lpyt 5y agoCorona viruses aren't novel, the common cold is one of them. There were no accurate spread models in 2020, no studies how masks would affect the spread of the common cold. There was ridiculous advice that the famous droplets would sink to the ground before covering a distance > 1.5 meters, that masks would not help at all and much more. Now they admit that the virus is airborne! Sorry, #FollowTheScience slogans and calling others fools does not help.
- throwaway210222 5y ago
- blagie 5y agoEven for delta? The actual study the article claims the summarize: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00460-6/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3... Find the word 'delta' in the text of the actual study. It ain't there. And look at the dates of the study. Most of the data is pre-delta. Your linked ACSH article simply fabricates a conclusion based on no evidence. The scientific establishment sickens me here. The goal is to get people to vaccinate, which is reasonable enough. The outcome is the opposite, though. The lies are common enough and transparent enough that the whole establishment loses credibility, and a huge swath of the world doesn't believe it about vaccines, climate change, and a slew of other issues.
- op00to 5y agoYes, even for delta.
- bluGill 5y agoAt least half as many vaccinated people get covid, not getting it means you don't spread it. And of those that do get it, they kick it a lot sooner and thus are not spreading it for as long. But no, if it isn't 100% perfect you have decided it is worthless.
- iluvcommunism 5y agoIt is a proven fact now that vaccinated folks spread just as much as non-vaccinated.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- tomrod 5y agoCite your source, please.
- iluvcommunism 5y ago
- Khaine 5y agoSo does the flu vaccine, but we don’t mandate that
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- konspence 5y agoYou are using the word 'sterilizing' to gain footing, though the difference in most peoples' meaning is negligible
- geomark 5y agoWhat do you mean by "most peoples' meaning"? Do you mean most people don't understand the difference between a sterilizing and non-sterlizing vaccine?
- jtbayly 5y agoWhen I get the MMR vaccine I don't need to worry about what versions of Measles it is and isn't effective against or how many months later I should start looking at getting another vaccine. That's a pretty big difference for most people.
- frumper 5y agoDTAP is not near 100% at preventing, required for schools, and needs lifelong boosters.
- wbl 5y agoSchools require thr polio vaccine. That one is also nonsterilizing.
- geomark 5y agoGiven that the polio vaccine has >99% efficacy [1] and the fact that US has been polio free since 1979 [2], with the only threat being the occasional traveler to a region with polio, being nonsterlizing doesn't seem to be an issue. Quite different from our current situation. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/effectiveness-duration-protection.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/effectiveness-dur... [2] https://www.cdc.gov/polio/what-is-polio/polio-us.html https://www.cdc.gov/polio/what-is-polio/polio-us.html
- ImPostingOnHN 5y agoit sounds like you are saying that a non-100% efficacy is still good enough, which most folks agree with
- geomark 5y agoNo, I'm comparing the much higher efficacy of the polio vaccine and low prevalence of the polio disease to the significantly lower efficacy of the Covid vaccines and the high prevalence of Covid at present. That means the fact that the polio vaccine is non-sterilizing isn't very important, while the fact that the Covid vaccines are non-sterilizing is a big deal and undermines some of the public health policy decisions.
- ImPostingOnHN 5y agoactually, the polio vaccine doesn't have much higher efficacy, and the covid vaccines don't have much lower efficacy, they have similar efficacy in reducing severe symptoms
- geomark 5y ago
- tomrod 5y agoEvery vaccine has a breakthrough rate.
- CyanLite2 5y agoNo. It's controversial because too many people believe idiots on social media who never graduated high school spout off theories about 5G microchipping, lizard people, and Ivermectin Horse DeWormer.