19 ms·
Why would employers need additional immunity? Do schools usually need legal immunity when they require vaccines?
by lalaland1125 5y ago
Why would employers need additional immunity? Do schools usually need legal immunity when they require vaccines?
- walterbell 5y agoThe MMR vaccine required by school is sterilizing, once and done. Intramuscular Covid vaccines provide blood/serum antibodies that can reduce the risk of severe disease or death, but they are non-sterilizing. They never promised to prevent infection and the CDC has updated their definitions to make that clear. Why would employers need legal immunity? Their lawyers may want to look closely at the legal immunity protections of the PREP act, which extend to healthcare professionals who recommend "countermeasures".
- lalaland1125 5y agoWhy would that change liability requirements? My fundamental question is that schools already have tons of vaccine requirements, so why should this one be considered special?
- walterbell 5y agoBecause it alters the risk/benefit calculus. A sterilizing vaccine that stops transmission in its tracks, has a clear public health benefit to every part of society, even if there are risks. A non-sterilizing vaccine does not provide that society-wide public health benefit, leaving the employer to bear risks without benefit.
- lalaland1125 5y agoBut the COVID vaccine does provide a society-wide public health benefit. Our best available data indicates that it reduces the risk of transmission, even for Delta [1]. 1. https://www.acsh.org/news/2021/09/07/covid-19-vaccines-prevent-delta-transmission-yet-another-study-shows-15787 https://www.acsh.org/news/2021/09/07/covid-19-vaccines-preve...
- walterbell 5y agoReducing is not the same as stopping, which is the definition of sterilizing vaccines, which is the common layman perception of "vaccine", including your original example of school-mandated vaccines. Fortunately, the CDC's Sept. 2021 updated definition makes it clear that non-sterilizing Covid vaccines should not be conflated with the transmission-stopping track record of sterilizing vaccines (e.g. MMR) mandated for school & travel.
- lalaland1125 5y agoReducing is still a society-wide public health benefit.
- walterbell 5y agoReducing does not have the same scaling effect as stopping, e.g. society must continue to pay an ongoing price for mitigations. Stopping means society can move on after a one-time vaccine cost. There are intranasal (e.g. inhaler) vaccines under development, which may provide nasal/mucosal antibodies. Until those are available, recovery from natural infection will provide both nasal/mucosal and blood/serum antibodies. This path is available to both the vaccinated and unvaccinated.
- lalaland1125 5y agoFor things defined by exponential growth like viruses, you don't have to stop them 100%. All you have to do is get the growth factor below 1.0 and the virus will die out as it can't infect enough people to stay alive.
- walterbell 5y agoWhy hasn't that happened already in countries with very high vaccine rates, like Israel?
- 5y ago
- konspence 5y agoYou are using the word 'sterilizing' to gain footing, though the difference in most peoples' meaning is negligible
- geomark 5y agoWhat do you mean by "most peoples' meaning"? Do you mean most people don't understand the difference between a sterilizing and non-sterlizing vaccine?
- jtbayly 5y agoWhen I get the MMR vaccine I don't need to worry about what versions of Measles it is and isn't effective against or how many months later I should start looking at getting another vaccine. That's a pretty big difference for most people.
- frumper 5y agoDTAP is not near 100% at preventing, required for schools, and needs lifelong boosters.
- wbl 5y agoSchools require thr polio vaccine. That one is also nonsterilizing.
- geomark 5y agoGiven that the polio vaccine has >99% efficacy [1] and the fact that US has been polio free since 1979 [2], with the only threat being the occasional traveler to a region with polio, being nonsterlizing doesn't seem to be an issue. Quite different from our current situation. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/effectiveness-duration-protection.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/effectiveness-dur... [2] https://www.cdc.gov/polio/what-is-polio/polio-us.html https://www.cdc.gov/polio/what-is-polio/polio-us.html
- ImPostingOnHN 5y agoit sounds like you are saying that a non-100% efficacy is still good enough, which most folks agree with
- geomark 5y agoNo, I'm comparing the much higher efficacy of the polio vaccine and low prevalence of the polio disease to the significantly lower efficacy of the Covid vaccines and the high prevalence of Covid at present. That means the fact that the polio vaccine is non-sterilizing isn't very important, while the fact that the Covid vaccines are non-sterilizing is a big deal and undermines some of the public health policy decisions.
- ImPostingOnHN 5y agoactually, the polio vaccine doesn't have much higher efficacy, and the covid vaccines don't have much lower efficacy, they have similar efficacy in reducing severe symptoms
- geomark 5y ago
- tomrod 5y agoEvery vaccine has a breakthrough rate.
- CyanLite2 5y agoNo. It's controversial because too many people believe idiots on social media who never graduated high school spout off theories about 5G microchipping, lizard people, and Ivermectin Horse DeWormer.
- tfehring 5y agoIsn’t the varicella zoster vaccine, which many schools have required for decades, also non-sterilizing?
- BurningFrog 5y agoWhat does "sterilizing" mean in this context?
- SAI_Peregrinus 5y agoIt means that for people with an immune system that's functioning within the normal range, the vaccine entirely prevents infection (100% effectiveness). Population-wide effectiveness isn't 100%, but for most individuals it is.
- BurningFrog 5y agoThanks. Now I know another term. I'm a bit confused by the term "infection" here. Let me split some hairs: Vaccines work by teaching the immune system how to fight an intruding virus, so it doesn't have to spend days or weeks figuring it out while the virus destroys your body. That means vaccinated people get viruses as often as unvaccinated, but defeat it much faster, usually before you notice any symptoms. My confusion is that I would call the time my immune system spends fighting a virus in my body an "infection", but apparently that is not the established use.
- sn9 5y agoYour confusion is warranted. These aren't terms that are 100% agreed upon and the scientific understanding is still evolving as our tools get better. The Atlantic just published an article about this very topic: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/09/sterilizing-immunity-myth-covid-19-vaccines/620023/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/09/steriliz...
- SAI_Peregrinus 5y agoIf the immune system fights off the invader before it becomes established and starts freely replicating (before any symptoms, before it can be detected, before it can be transmitted) then it's not an infection. It's just some contamination.
- elliekelly 5y ago> which extend to healthcare professionals who recommend "countermeasures" Not quite: > The term “covered person”, when used with respect to the administration or use of a covered countermeasure, means— (A) the United States; or (B) a person or entity that is— [...] (iv) a qualified person who prescribed, administered, or dispensed such countermeasure; Prescribing, administering, and dispensing are very different from “recommending”. https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/uscode.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=42-USC-1258700831-306953241&term_occur=999&term_src=title:42:chapter:6A:subchapter:II:part:B:section:247d–6d https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/uscode.php?width=840...
- slavboj 5y ago"They never promised to prevent infection" Are we really going to bother digging up the copious video evidence this is a lie? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xcur3kwCyg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xcur3kwCyg
- dntrkv 5y agoLike the MD in your video pointed out, it _reduces_ transmission, it does not completely eliminate it. Nobody has ever claimed that it does.
- rualca 5y ago> Are we really going to bother digging up the copious video evidence this is a lie? It seems you're either a bit confused or you didn't bothered to even watch the very same video you posted. I watched the video and nowhere in it does anyone promise anything about infections magically go away. In fact, the infection disease specialist in the video says quite clearly that the observed reduction in spread was around 60%, and this statement is repeated in multiple occasions throughout the video. The video was also posted over 7 months ago, prior to some of the major vaccines having been approved and made available to the public. Please do not throw baseless accusations of anyone lying when the best proof you can come up with just refutes your accusation entirely.
- slavboj 5y agoDid you read the headline? "No one ever claimed this" except for literally thousands of journalists and government spokesmodels.
- scohesc 5y agoDon't worry, it's "safe and effective!"
- angelzen 5y agoText: Most elephants are grey. Sometimes they can be white. They are definitely not black. Headline: The Science is in: Elephants are White Pushback: No, elephants are not white. Twitter: NO ONE EVER CLAIMED ELEPHANTS ARE WHITE. or STOP SPREADING MISINFORMATION THAT ELEPHANTS ARE BLACK.
- sn9 5y agoFunnily enough, The Atlantic just put out an article describing why the idea of "sterilizing vaccines" itself might be a myth and why that doesn't matter from a practical public health standpoint: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/09/sterilizing-immunity-myth-covid-19-vaccines/620023/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/09/steriliz...
- maxlybbert 5y agoSide effects from vaccines are rare, but do occasionally happen. Because of the small risk, there’s a government program to pay money to anybody who suffers a serious side effect from taking a vaccine in exchange for granting legal immunity to vaccine producers ( https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html ). So, to answer your question, schools don’t literally require legal immunity themselves, but they do benefit from legal immunity that that the government gives vaccine manufacturers: there’s no need to sue a school for requiring vaccines when there’s a special program to pay out benefits. Last I knew, COVID-19 vaccines weren’t covered, but apparently I missed some news, since it’s the first thing listed on https://www.hrsa.gov/cicp https://www.hrsa.gov/cicp .
- basch 5y ago>pay money to anybody who suffers a serious side effect from taking a vaccine Nitpick, but really it is a fund to pay for anyone who suffered a side effect that it cannot be proven wasnt a vaccine. In this case vaccines are guilty until proven innocent. >approximately 70 percent of its payments are the result of a negotiated settlement “in which HHS has not concluded, based upon review of the evidence, that the alleged vaccine caused the alleged injury.” https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2019/05/vaccine-safety-program/589354/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2019/05/vaccine-s...
- R0b0t1 5y agoI was given the paperwork for this program on my first dose, I got it early.
- scohesc 5y ago1) How do you prove it was the vaccine that caused your side effects? You can't. It's not provable in court because "my legs went numb a day or two after I got the jab" isn't exactly concrete evidence. 2) No company should have their liability removed for any reason, especially by the government. This thinking was partly why the 2008 recession happened. I don't want the government taking on the liability of a multi-billion dollar industry because if the company messes up, we're paying more in taxes - guaranteed - to pay for all the settlements. 3) This mandate by the government violates every part of a right to personal autonomy when it comes to your health - there is a MONUMENTAL difference when the mandate comes from government as opposed to private business. This sets (further) precedence for future governments to give them carte blanche as to peoples' health. Side note - Just a reminder that government-ran health systems like the NHS makes decisions about your health based on the status of the current system - meaning that people who are too costly to fix/repair/KEEP ALIVE will receive palliative care. That's disgusting to me. (The US healthcare system is a whole other topic entirely, this is just an example of government making bad decisions regarding your health)
- indymike 5y agoIf you cannot sue the maker of the vaccine, enterprising lawyers will sue the deepest pockets involved in making you get vaccinated.
- ceejayoz 5y agoThey'll run up against OHSA's sovereign immunity pretty fast here.
- ecommerceguy 5y agoAre you implying OSHA is 'un-sueable'? https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/07/23/lawsuit-osha-safety-coronavirus/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/07/23/lawsuit-o...
- ceejayoz 5y agoAnyone can sue anyone for anything. Winning is a different thing. Sovereign immunity doesn’t prevent the filing of a suit. The suit was dismissed. https://www.foodprocessing.com/industrynews/2021/meat-workers-suit-against-osha-dismissed/ https://www.foodprocessing.com/industrynews/2021/meat-worker... > But, he added, courts have no jurisdiction to force OSHA to take action and “the remedy lies with the Legislature and not the courts.”
- ImPostingOnHN 5y agoif qualifying companies don't mandate the vaccine, enterprising lawyers will sue the deepest pockets involved in not making sure employees get vaccinated yep, turns out lawyers will find stuff to sue folks for, no matter what so, companies might as well do the right thing and be protected by the federal government than do the wrong thing and have to fight those lawyers all on their own