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The rationale in that case doesn't apply here: the COVID vaccines don't stop the spread of the virus. Because COVID vaccines can't actually stop the spread of t

The rationale in that case doesn't apply here: the COVID vaccines don't stop the spread of the virus. Because COVID vaccines can't actually stop the spread of the disease under any plausible level of vaccination (the R0 of the virus is too high), vaccines can serve only to safeguard the health of individuals, and we generally don't use heavy-handed nation-wide mandates to force people to do things that are merely good for them health-wise on an individual basis. The same reasoning that justifies this mandate would justify a state-imposed limit on daily calorie consumption, a state-imposed exercise requirement, and all sorts of other coercive measures that, while good for people's health, are flagrant violations of principles of bodily autonomy and informed consent for medical treatment. This isn't about the vaccine and it's not even about COVID. This is about one political tribe using the state to hurt the other political tribe.

davmar 5y ago
Wow, you are very wrong on every point.
- quotemstr 5y ago
  > Wow, you are very wrong on every point. Maybe so, but you've offered nothing that would convince me or anything else that I'm wrong. "Wow, just wow" is not an argument.
  - davmar 5y ago
    I didn't bother since you didn't provide any arguments either.
dwaltrip 5y ago
We don’t need to eliminate transmission for the vaccines to be useful. My understanding is that they do meaningfully reduce transmission, even for Delta. You are also missing another important factor. In addition to reducing transmission, the vaccines greatly reduce the chance of hospitalization, which together significantly reduces the peak load on the health system so that it continues to function well and serve non-COVID patients. In many areas, hospitals were nearing or at capacity due to the recent Delta surge.
- quotemstr 5y ago
  I don't think reducing transmission matters that much as long as R_0 is above 1. If it's above 1, everyone is getting this thing.
- anonygler 5y ago
  There are 2 separate issues. Reduce transmission, which it only does marginally. Preventing hospitalization is a separate matter and not really worthy of a mandate. Banning alcohol and fast food will save far more lives, in that case.
  - ZetaZero 5y ago
    > Reduce transmission, which it only does marginally. 91% is a huge reduction. "COVID-19 vaccines ... reduce the risk of infection by 91 percent" https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p0607-mrna-reduce-risks.html https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p0607-mrna-reduce-ri...
    - quotemstr 5y ago
      Maybe so --- but places like Iceland still have big COVID waves despite very high vaccination rates, so clearly, the vaccine doesn't reduce the risk of infection enough to stop the spread, and that's what matters.
      - ZetaZero 5y ago
        With the delta variant, experts believe we need 90% vaccinations to achieve herd immunity. Iceland is at 72.8%. There is every reason to believe that the vaccine would stop the transmission once enough people had the vaccine.
        landemva 5y ago
        Does that 90% include cats and deer? Believe what you want, though the fact is the animal virus reservoirs mutate and transmit to humans, so the 'rona will be with us for approximately forever.

davmar 5y ago

Wow, you are very wrong on every point.

quotemstr 5y ago
> Wow, you are very wrong on every point. Maybe so, but you've offered nothing that would convince me or anything else that I'm wrong. "Wow, just wow" is not an argument.
- davmar 5y ago
  I didn't bother since you didn't provide any arguments either.

dwaltrip 5y ago

We don’t need to eliminate transmission for the vaccines to be useful. My understanding is that they do meaningfully reduce transmission, even for Delta. You are also missing another important factor. In addition to reducing transmission, the vaccines greatly reduce the chance of hospitalization, which together significantly reduces the peak load on the health system so that it continues to function well and serve non-COVID patients. In many areas, hospitals were nearing or at capacity due to the recent Delta surge.

quotemstr 5y ago
I don't think reducing transmission matters that much as long as R_0 is above 1. If it's above 1, everyone is getting this thing.
anonygler 5y ago
There are 2 separate issues. Reduce transmission, which it only does marginally. Preventing hospitalization is a separate matter and not really worthy of a mandate. Banning alcohol and fast food will save far more lives, in that case.
- ZetaZero 5y ago
  > Reduce transmission, which it only does marginally. 91% is a huge reduction. "COVID-19 vaccines ... reduce the risk of infection by 91 percent" https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p0607-mrna-reduce-risks.html https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p0607-mrna-reduce-ri...
  - quotemstr 5y ago
    Maybe so --- but places like Iceland still have big COVID waves despite very high vaccination rates, so clearly, the vaccine doesn't reduce the risk of infection enough to stop the spread, and that's what matters.
    - ZetaZero 5y ago
      With the delta variant, experts believe we need 90% vaccinations to achieve herd immunity. Iceland is at 72.8%. There is every reason to believe that the vaccine would stop the transmission once enough people had the vaccine.
      - landemva 5y ago
        Does that 90% include cats and deer? Believe what you want, though the fact is the animal virus reservoirs mutate and transmit to humans, so the 'rona will be with us for approximately forever.