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There are vaccines. Everyone that wants a vaccine already got it or can easily get it. People say they are extremely good at eliminate severe covid, that's what

There are vaccines. Everyone that wants a vaccine already got it or can easily get it. People say they are extremely good at eliminate severe covid, that's what I got one myself. But at this point taking a vaccine or not is a personal decision. People are punching themselves in the face all the time, see obesity crisis for example. Should we ban hamburgers & fries next?

setum 5y ago
yes, if obesity were contagious.
- angelzen 5y ago
  If only vaccines were to prevent covid spread. 'CDC: COVID-19 Vaccines 66% Effective Against Delta Variant'. https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210825/cdc-covid-19-vaccines-66-percent-effective-against-delta-variant https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/2021082...
  - standardUser 5y ago
    What point are you trying to make? And why do you think a link to a single study without explanation would prove any point whatsoever?
    - angelzen 5y ago
      That according to CDC data 1/3 of vax people are going to develop an infection. There is no way to purge covid infections from the population, not even with 100% vax rate. In a population 67% vaccinated or higher, there are going to be more vax infections than unvax infections. At which point choosing to vax oneself or not is not going to keep covid from spreading and becomes a personal choice. If you are an adult, would do you good to get vaxed. But seems strange that the OP claimed to be 'libertarian' and yet in favour of forced vax. There is a big difference between 'this is what I think would do you good, but I'm going to respect your decision regardless' and 'get vaxed or else' position so many have embraced of late.
      - bagels 5y ago
        Vaccines can bring the R number below 1 from above 1, which means that it really doesn't spread out of control anymore, and becomes much less common in the population.
        angelzen 5y ago
        Thanks for mentioning R. For a bit of good news, current estimates are that most states/counties currently have R < 1, https://covidestim.org https://covidestim.org. Hopefully we've passed the worst of Delta. I have no doubt vaccines helped, though I'm unsure how much. Obviously we didn't needed 100% vax rate to get to this point. Comparing with the situation a month ago obviously something else other than vax (and/or masks) has had a big hand in the R reduction (hint, natural immunity). What I am pointing at is that there is a population vaccination level beyond which further vaccination has diminishing returns. There are fundamental principles like bodily autonomy and human dignity that we shouldn't throw away just to chase a slightly lower R number, cumulative deaths with covid, or any hyperfocused metric we use to track the pandemic evolution. PS. I hold the underlying assumption that covid is endemic and over the next decade we'll keep having outbreaks until everybody builds up sufficient natural immunity.
        nradov 5y ago
        That claim is an article of faith in some circles but there is actually no reliable scientific evidence that even a high level of vaccination can drive R0 below 1. Transmission will slow down as more people gain some level of immunity one way or another but the virus is now endemic and all of us can expect to get exposed occasionally. Fortunately the vaccines are still very effective at preventing deaths. https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immunity-not-possible-astrazeneca-developer-2021-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immu...
- tbrownaw 5y ago
  From https://www.nature.com/articles/srep37961 https://www.nature.com/articles/srep37961 : > In a social network, many phenomena have been found to spread interpersonally, such as biological games4, indirect reciprocity5, misinformation or rumors6,7, and infectious diseases8,9. Obesity is one of them10 and is often seen as a contagious epidemic1
herbst 5y ago
> Everyone that wants a vaccine already got it or can easily get it. Assuming you have luck and live in a rich country that offers one of the actually working vaccines. Everyone is still a very far stretch
- angelzen 5y ago
  Everyone under the purview of Biden's decree.
enkid 5y ago
People aren't allowed to drive drunk not because it's a risk to themselves, but because it's a risk to other people. This is the same with the vaccine. You are putting at risk children, the immunocompromised, or people who have legitimate medical reasons they can't get the vaccine, do your logic falls apart. Not to mention the risks and costs associated with an overburdened healthcare system.
- trekz 5y ago
  Actually, refusing the vaccine isnt the same as driving drunk. To be in a situation where you're endangering others by driving drunk requires an action: drinking alcohol recklessly (action) Refusing the vaccine requires no action on the person's part, but somehow are still considered to be endangering others (even if they're healthy and without COVID).

setum 5y ago

yes, if obesity were contagious.

angelzen 5y ago
If only vaccines were to prevent covid spread. 'CDC: COVID-19 Vaccines 66% Effective Against Delta Variant'. https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210825/cdc-covid-19-vaccines-66-percent-effective-against-delta-variant https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/2021082...
- standardUser 5y ago
  What point are you trying to make? And why do you think a link to a single study without explanation would prove any point whatsoever?
  - angelzen 5y ago
    That according to CDC data 1/3 of vax people are going to develop an infection. There is no way to purge covid infections from the population, not even with 100% vax rate. In a population 67% vaccinated or higher, there are going to be more vax infections than unvax infections. At which point choosing to vax oneself or not is not going to keep covid from spreading and becomes a personal choice. If you are an adult, would do you good to get vaxed. But seems strange that the OP claimed to be 'libertarian' and yet in favour of forced vax. There is a big difference between 'this is what I think would do you good, but I'm going to respect your decision regardless' and 'get vaxed or else' position so many have embraced of late.
    - bagels 5y ago
      Vaccines can bring the R number below 1 from above 1, which means that it really doesn't spread out of control anymore, and becomes much less common in the population.
      - angelzen 5y ago
        Thanks for mentioning R. For a bit of good news, current estimates are that most states/counties currently have R < 1, https://covidestim.org https://covidestim.org. Hopefully we've passed the worst of Delta. I have no doubt vaccines helped, though I'm unsure how much. Obviously we didn't needed 100% vax rate to get to this point. Comparing with the situation a month ago obviously something else other than vax (and/or masks) has had a big hand in the R reduction (hint, natural immunity). What I am pointing at is that there is a population vaccination level beyond which further vaccination has diminishing returns. There are fundamental principles like bodily autonomy and human dignity that we shouldn't throw away just to chase a slightly lower R number, cumulative deaths with covid, or any hyperfocused metric we use to track the pandemic evolution. PS. I hold the underlying assumption that covid is endemic and over the next decade we'll keep having outbreaks until everybody builds up sufficient natural immunity.
      - nradov 5y ago
        That claim is an article of faith in some circles but there is actually no reliable scientific evidence that even a high level of vaccination can drive R0 below 1. Transmission will slow down as more people gain some level of immunity one way or another but the virus is now endemic and all of us can expect to get exposed occasionally. Fortunately the vaccines are still very effective at preventing deaths. https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immunity-not-possible-astrazeneca-developer-2021-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immu...
tbrownaw 5y ago
From https://www.nature.com/articles/srep37961 https://www.nature.com/articles/srep37961 : > In a social network, many phenomena have been found to spread interpersonally, such as biological games4, indirect reciprocity5, misinformation or rumors6,7, and infectious diseases8,9. Obesity is one of them10 and is often seen as a contagious epidemic1

herbst 5y ago

> Everyone that wants a vaccine already got it or can easily get it. Assuming you have luck and live in a rich country that offers one of the actually working vaccines. Everyone is still a very far stretch

angelzen 5y ago
Everyone under the purview of Biden's decree.

enkid 5y ago

People aren't allowed to drive drunk not because it's a risk to themselves, but because it's a risk to other people. This is the same with the vaccine. You are putting at risk children, the immunocompromised, or people who have legitimate medical reasons they can't get the vaccine, do your logic falls apart. Not to mention the risks and costs associated with an overburdened healthcare system.

trekz 5y ago
Actually, refusing the vaccine isnt the same as driving drunk. To be in a situation where you're endangering others by driving drunk requires an action: drinking alcohol recklessly (action) Refusing the vaccine requires no action on the person's part, but somehow are still considered to be endangering others (even if they're healthy and without COVID).