5 ms·

Vaccination is not a political position. Vaccines only work if a large majority of people are vaccinated and people who refuse to receive the shot are putting

Vaccination is not a political position. Vaccines only work if a large majority of people are vaccinated and people who refuse to receive the shot are putting everyone else in danger. A basic function of a government is to protect public safety, and that is what a vaccine mandate does.

sk2020 5y ago
Your vaccine does not work unless someone or everyone else has one? Has this been observed with previous vaccine products?
- spywaregorilla 5y ago
  Everyone getting vaccinated has clear benefits, and helps avoids breakouts. See mumps, measles, polio, etc.
  - sk2020 5y ago
    Well, probably not the people with myocarditis or Bell’s palsy.
- betterunix2 5y ago
  Yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_infection#By_disease https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_infection#By_dise... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity Do not think in terms of "your vaccine," because vaccines are about preventing the spread of a disease within a population.
  - sk2020 5y ago
    That’s interesting. Every other vaccine, like Hep A, Hep B, MMR, TDAP, and flu I’ve taken was to protect myself, or so I thought. But if someone with an account on Wikipedia wrote something, well, I guess that would change everything. I guess we’re lucky to have people who care so deeply and personally about hospital bed utilization rates that they will inflict as much punishment as necessary to meet those goals.
    - betterunix2 5y ago
      Every other vaccine you have received was meant to protect the population you live in (which includes yourself); sorry, but you thought wrong. As for hospital bed utilization, maybe you would be less dismissive if you took a trip to Idaho and got into a car accident: https://healthandwelfare.idaho.gov/news/idaho-activates-crisis-standards-care-north-idaho-due-surge-covid-19-patients-requiring https://healthandwelfare.idaho.gov/news/idaho-activates-cris... Broken arm? Not life-threatening, here's some pain killers, go away and let us deal with these COVID patients. Or maybe, "This one has less than a 10% chance of survival. Let him die, we need to focus on saving people who are more likely to make it."
    - enragedcacti 5y ago
      FYI wikipedia requires references to a reputable source. Feel free to read some of the 100 references for herd immunity here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity#References https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity#References
      - sk2020 5y ago
        100 references is a big round number for sure. I’m guessing these address treatments that do not prevent infection or transmission.
  - nradov 5y ago
    The Delta variant is so contagious that there will be no significant herd immunity effect. So I would encourage everyone to get vaccinated to protect themselves. https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immunity-not-possible-astrazeneca-developer-2021-8?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immu...
  - benf76 5y ago
    Yes but here immunity is impossible :-/ https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immunity-not-possible-astrazeneca-developer-2021-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immu...
AndrewBissell 5y ago
> Vaccines only work if a large majority of people are vaccinated and people who refuse to receive the shot are putting everyone else in danger. I assume by "work" you mean herd immunity (I can't make sense of the statement otherwise), but even 99% vaccinated regions are seeing transmission because the Covid vaccines are not sterilizing and do little or nothing to reduce transmission. Herd immunity arguments don't apply here.
- betterunix2 5y ago
  Citation needed, because that contradicts the CDC's guidance: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-br... "people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2 or to transmit it to others" emphasis mine
  - twstdsistrs84 5y ago
    The CDC is a political body which doesn't practice science. They spew propaganda. Safe to ignore any citations that start with cdc.gov.
  - AndrewBissell 5y ago
    "less likely" is bureaucratic weasel language which could encompass a percentage reduction anywhere from 1 to 99 percent. But what the CDC specifically said in the Provincetown study is that "vaccinated individuals infected with delta may be able to transmit the virus as easily as those who are unvaccinated." https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/29/cdc-mask-guidance/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/29/cdc-mask-gu... Also from that article: > The breakthrough cases are to be expected, the CDC briefing states, and will probably rise as a proportion of all cases because there are so many more people vaccinated now. This echoes data seen from studies in other countries, including highly vaccinated Singapore, where 75 percent of new infections reportedly occur in people who are partially and fully vaccinated.
spywaregorilla 5y ago
Clearly it has become a political position. A progressive way of thinking about this move is to depoliticize it by making it the enforced norm because it's a stupid thing to politicize. A cynical view is that it'll force non conformers out. But its hardly novel to make government employees do politically slanted things. I'm sure a lot of government employees on the democrat or neutral side felt strong opposition to demands made of them during the trump admin. I'm for this one.
- betterunix2 5y ago
  COVID vaccination may have become a political position, but vaccination in general is not. Where are all the debates about MMR, hep-B, polio, etc.? We have required vaccinations in our children beginning in infancy for generations, and I am not hearing any governors or representatives saying that we must end the practice.
  - woodpanel 5y ago
    Each of these illnesses you state is multiple times more serious than covid. And each of their vaccines had the clear benefit of being an actual vaccine.
    - rsfern 5y ago
      Covid was the third leading cause of death in the US in 2020. Just because it’s not a uniform risk profile across the population does not make it an unserious disease.
    - judahmeek 5y ago
      Hepatitis-B is more serious than Covid-19? By what criteria?
tomjen3 5y ago
Not only did you come forward with a political position while stating that it isn't, you are also wrong about what the vacines do and do not protect. If vacines didn't protect the person taking them, there wouldn't be any use to them at all.
- betterunix2 5y ago
  For comparison the flu shot prevents infection in about 60% of people who receive it. The point is not to prevent infection in every single person who receives the shot, it is to prevent infection in or transmission from enough people that the virus will not spread from person to person. Vaccination is not a political position in the US. We require children to receive numerous vaccines from infancy onward and that policy is broadly supported across the political spectrum, and has been for generations now. Where are all those political debates about the polio vaccine, or MMR, or hep B etc.? All I hear are crickets...
  - angelzen 5y ago
    The flu shot is not mandatory, nor should it be. Partly becase low effectiveness, partly because it's sensitive to mutations, partly because the risk of complications, while not zero, is relatively low. Polio vaccine is a bit of an outlier. 3 doses give 99% effectiveness. MMR 2 doses is 97% effective against measles and 88% against mumps. The jury is still out on how effective mRNA is against covid delta, studies are all over the place, 42% to 96% for Pfizer. A lot of people are concerned that mutations evading the vaccine are likely to occur, including Pfizer CEO. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/effectiveness-duration-protection.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/effectiveness-dur... https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/mmr/public/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/mmr/public/index.html https://www.healthline.com/health-news/heres-how-well-covid-19-vaccines-work-against-the-delta-variant https://www.healthline.com/health-news/heres-how-well-covid-...
  - tomjen3 5y ago
    >Vaccination is not a political position in the US. Antivaxers aren't new, but it became a serious political question/fight when the covid vacine hit. As for right now there was multiple post about it on /r/politics. Just because you do not think it should be a political issue does not mean it isn't.
swayvil 5y ago
By that argument you can sate your hunger by forcing me to eat a sandwich.
refurb 5y ago
Vaccines only work if a large majority are vaccinated Thats not true at all. If I get vaccinated it reduces my risk of serious disease - the vaccine works.

sk2020 5y ago

Your vaccine does not work unless someone or everyone else has one? Has this been observed with previous vaccine products?

spywaregorilla 5y ago
Everyone getting vaccinated has clear benefits, and helps avoids breakouts. See mumps, measles, polio, etc.
- sk2020 5y ago
  Well, probably not the people with myocarditis or Bell’s palsy.
betterunix2 5y ago
Yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_infection#By_disease https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_infection#By_dise... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity Do not think in terms of "your vaccine," because vaccines are about preventing the spread of a disease within a population.
- sk2020 5y ago
  That’s interesting. Every other vaccine, like Hep A, Hep B, MMR, TDAP, and flu I’ve taken was to protect myself, or so I thought. But if someone with an account on Wikipedia wrote something, well, I guess that would change everything. I guess we’re lucky to have people who care so deeply and personally about hospital bed utilization rates that they will inflict as much punishment as necessary to meet those goals.
  - betterunix2 5y ago
    Every other vaccine you have received was meant to protect the population you live in (which includes yourself); sorry, but you thought wrong. As for hospital bed utilization, maybe you would be less dismissive if you took a trip to Idaho and got into a car accident: https://healthandwelfare.idaho.gov/news/idaho-activates-crisis-standards-care-north-idaho-due-surge-covid-19-patients-requiring https://healthandwelfare.idaho.gov/news/idaho-activates-cris... Broken arm? Not life-threatening, here's some pain killers, go away and let us deal with these COVID patients. Or maybe, "This one has less than a 10% chance of survival. Let him die, we need to focus on saving people who are more likely to make it."
  - enragedcacti 5y ago
    FYI wikipedia requires references to a reputable source. Feel free to read some of the 100 references for herd immunity here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity#References https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity#References
    - sk2020 5y ago
      100 references is a big round number for sure. I’m guessing these address treatments that do not prevent infection or transmission.
- nradov 5y ago
  The Delta variant is so contagious that there will be no significant herd immunity effect. So I would encourage everyone to get vaccinated to protect themselves. https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immunity-not-possible-astrazeneca-developer-2021-8?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immu...
- benf76 5y ago
  Yes but here immunity is impossible :-/ https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immunity-not-possible-astrazeneca-developer-2021-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immu...

AndrewBissell 5y ago

> Vaccines only work if a large majority of people are vaccinated and people who refuse to receive the shot are putting everyone else in danger. I assume by "work" you mean herd immunity (I can't make sense of the statement otherwise), but even 99% vaccinated regions are seeing transmission because the Covid vaccines are not sterilizing and do little or nothing to reduce transmission. Herd immunity arguments don't apply here.

betterunix2 5y ago
Citation needed, because that contradicts the CDC's guidance: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-br... "people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2 or to transmit it to others" emphasis mine
- twstdsistrs84 5y ago
  The CDC is a political body which doesn't practice science. They spew propaganda. Safe to ignore any citations that start with cdc.gov.
- AndrewBissell 5y ago
  "less likely" is bureaucratic weasel language which could encompass a percentage reduction anywhere from 1 to 99 percent. But what the CDC specifically said in the Provincetown study is that "vaccinated individuals infected with delta may be able to transmit the virus as easily as those who are unvaccinated." https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/29/cdc-mask-guidance/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/29/cdc-mask-gu... Also from that article: > The breakthrough cases are to be expected, the CDC briefing states, and will probably rise as a proportion of all cases because there are so many more people vaccinated now. This echoes data seen from studies in other countries, including highly vaccinated Singapore, where 75 percent of new infections reportedly occur in people who are partially and fully vaccinated.

spywaregorilla 5y ago

Clearly it has become a political position. A progressive way of thinking about this move is to depoliticize it by making it the enforced norm because it's a stupid thing to politicize. A cynical view is that it'll force non conformers out. But its hardly novel to make government employees do politically slanted things. I'm sure a lot of government employees on the democrat or neutral side felt strong opposition to demands made of them during the trump admin. I'm for this one.

betterunix2 5y ago
COVID vaccination may have become a political position, but vaccination in general is not. Where are all the debates about MMR, hep-B, polio, etc.? We have required vaccinations in our children beginning in infancy for generations, and I am not hearing any governors or representatives saying that we must end the practice.
- woodpanel 5y ago
  Each of these illnesses you state is multiple times more serious than covid. And each of their vaccines had the clear benefit of being an actual vaccine.
  - rsfern 5y ago
    Covid was the third leading cause of death in the US in 2020. Just because it’s not a uniform risk profile across the population does not make it an unserious disease.
  - judahmeek 5y ago
    Hepatitis-B is more serious than Covid-19? By what criteria?

tomjen3 5y ago

Not only did you come forward with a political position while stating that it isn't, you are also wrong about what the vacines do and do not protect. If vacines didn't protect the person taking them, there wouldn't be any use to them at all.

betterunix2 5y ago
For comparison the flu shot prevents infection in about 60% of people who receive it. The point is not to prevent infection in every single person who receives the shot, it is to prevent infection in or transmission from enough people that the virus will not spread from person to person. Vaccination is not a political position in the US. We require children to receive numerous vaccines from infancy onward and that policy is broadly supported across the political spectrum, and has been for generations now. Where are all those political debates about the polio vaccine, or MMR, or hep B etc.? All I hear are crickets...
- angelzen 5y ago
  The flu shot is not mandatory, nor should it be. Partly becase low effectiveness, partly because it's sensitive to mutations, partly because the risk of complications, while not zero, is relatively low. Polio vaccine is a bit of an outlier. 3 doses give 99% effectiveness. MMR 2 doses is 97% effective against measles and 88% against mumps. The jury is still out on how effective mRNA is against covid delta, studies are all over the place, 42% to 96% for Pfizer. A lot of people are concerned that mutations evading the vaccine are likely to occur, including Pfizer CEO. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/effectiveness-duration-protection.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/effectiveness-dur... https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/mmr/public/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/mmr/public/index.html https://www.healthline.com/health-news/heres-how-well-covid-19-vaccines-work-against-the-delta-variant https://www.healthline.com/health-news/heres-how-well-covid-...
- tomjen3 5y ago
  >Vaccination is not a political position in the US. Antivaxers aren't new, but it became a serious political question/fight when the covid vacine hit. As for right now there was multiple post about it on /r/politics. Just because you do not think it should be a political issue does not mean it isn't.

swayvil 5y ago

By that argument you can sate your hunger by forcing me to eat a sandwich.

refurb 5y ago

Vaccines only work if a large majority are vaccinated Thats not true at all. If I get vaccinated it reduces my risk of serious disease - the vaccine works.