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One of the first real functional uses of Bitcoin in my family was as a way to send money to my nieces when they were in college. We used Coinbase accounts and m

One of the first real functional uses of Bitcoin in my family was as a way to send money to my nieces when they were in college. We used Coinbase accounts and moved money faster and cheaper than either the USPS or any money order company. We often made money on the transfers and never paid/lost more than the cost of a money order.

spinax 5y ago
Bitcoin valuation "crashed" -$4k USD (I think that's about 8-10%?) just two days ago on the 7th (and within the span of 4 hours, check the charts); if you had created your transfer that morning and they received it the next day to "cash out" to USD, you would have lost a lot of the valuation of your transfer.
- djbebs 5y ago
  Why do you think it takes more than 20 minutes to transfer bitcoin?
  - el-salvador 5y ago
    I think they are using the Lightning network. It takes a few seconds for the transaction to clean off chain.
  - vlovich123 5y ago
    I would think op is talking about both the latency of any eventual transfer to fiat (and maybe some delay in doing so because humans are lazy).
    - angio 5y ago
      But the delay is after the bitcoins are converted to fiat, so even if it takes one day is not influenced by the price of bitcoin.
      - vlovich123 5y ago
        If it takes the converting entity 24 hours to perform KYC checks (& perform whatever other settlements they need to do to convert), do they give you the conversion rate at the time you asked for it or at the time they did the conversion? Or do you get the worst of the two?
        fnordfnordfnord 5y ago
        KYC is only done once, at account creation.
      - rualca 5y ago
        > But the delay is after the bitcoins are converted to fiat (...) If you're trying to discuss aspects of the transaction then either you focus specifically on the crypto-to-crypto part of the transaction, or the fiat-to-fiat. The crypto-to-crypto part of the transaction is arguably fast but you are forced to address Bitcoin's volatility, which makes it unsuited as a store of value. The fiat-to-fiat aspect of the transaction on the other hand is arguably slower than simple bank transactions, and often with higher cost. Every crypto proponent is doing a colossal disservice to crypto by portraying a romanticized and intensely rose-tainted view of crypto. In truth you're just setting up everyone around you to be disappointed. Between magical schemes where crypto transactions are magically instant and cost-free and pretending that crypto is not highly volatile (see the last Bitcoin 50% crash a couple months ago, or yesterday's flash crash) you're unwittingly pulling a bait-and-switch and in the process turning everyone away from it.
- reportgunner 5y ago
  yeah and it "pumped" +$3k USD 2 days before that. If you have created your transfer before it and they "cashed out" after it they would have gained valuation of the transfer.
- robot_no_419 5y ago
  You completely ignored the the part where OP said they often made money in REAL LIFE and injected your own hypothetical of how they could lose money if they chose to buy, send, and sell their assets at a very specific worst case scenario point in time...
  - jeromegv 5y ago
    Has nothing to do with "real life". They could either win money, or lose money, that's how volatile bitcoin is. The fact they got lucky and transferred in moments where they made money, doesn't make it a better "real life" scenario. Just makes it a lucky scenario, anecdata that might have been the complete opposite.
    - robot_no_419 5y ago
      But if he was making money on average (which he said he did), then bayesian logic would imply that the average outcome would be to make money. So it's not luck, it's the average outcome. The "unlucky" and unusual event in this case is losing money on Bitcoin based on the prior evidence.
    - fnordfnordfnord 5y ago
      It wasn't luck. The price is frequently volatile but has trended up (to a great degree) since inception.
mupuff1234 5y ago
Didn't you mind that by the time they converted that Bitcoin to local currency - it could have lost xx% of it's value?
- tluyben2 5y ago
  Or gained.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    People generally do not intend to play roulette while also transferring money to their relatives.
    - Scoundreller 5y ago
      I do a similar thing myself to exchange currencies. My broker will let me buy a stock in Canadian dollars on the Toronto stock market, and then sell it a few days later in US dollars on the US stock market. And vice versa. Many Canadian companies trade on both. Shopify is another that you may be more familiar with (though I don’t use that one). You take some volatility risk over those few days, but on average, you save a lot on fees and make a bit of money over those days. Over enough transactions, even the volatility averages out.
      - el-salvador 5y ago
        How large the spread between two stable currencies USD/CAD can be? Compared to USD and Bitcoin.
        Scoundreller 5y ago
        If you’re a bank converting millions, you get good rates. When you’re converting 0-$100k at a bank, they charge you 1.5% - 3% (for lower amounts).
      - wavefunction 5y ago
haskellandchill 5y ago
So the argument would be because bitcoin is useful for money transfer or some other activity I need to buy some even though I don't need to do the activity to preserve my purchasing power against others who are finding uses for bitcoin and driving adoptation? I personally have no use for bitcoin but am I essentially forced to buy some as a hedge against other economic actors gaining from holding bitcoin, or am I able to ignore it at no economic loss to myself.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  > I personally have no use for bitcoin but am I essentially forced to buy some as a hedge against other economic actors gaining from holding bitcoin, or am I able to ignore it at no economic loss to myself. This situation exists all the time with all asset classes, not just Bitcoin.
- lottin 5y ago
  No, you don't have to buy it. Even in the impossible event that bitcoin became very successful, your net worth and income should remain unaffected by the price of bitcoin.
betwixthewires 5y ago
FYI you didn't really use bitcoin, you used coinbase, a service. You may have seen the accounting denominated in bitcoin, but what you actually did was move coinbase balances around, this never actually had to be finalized on the bitcoin network, only on coinbase's books.
- fnordfnordfnord 5y ago
  Yeah, that's fair.

spinax 5y ago

Bitcoin valuation "crashed" -$4k USD (I think that's about 8-10%?) just two days ago on the 7th (and within the span of 4 hours, check the charts); if you had created your transfer that morning and they received it the next day to "cash out" to USD, you would have lost a lot of the valuation of your transfer.

djbebs 5y ago
Why do you think it takes more than 20 minutes to transfer bitcoin?
- el-salvador 5y ago
  I think they are using the Lightning network. It takes a few seconds for the transaction to clean off chain.
- vlovich123 5y ago
  I would think op is talking about both the latency of any eventual transfer to fiat (and maybe some delay in doing so because humans are lazy).
  - angio 5y ago
    But the delay is after the bitcoins are converted to fiat, so even if it takes one day is not influenced by the price of bitcoin.
    - vlovich123 5y ago
      If it takes the converting entity 24 hours to perform KYC checks (& perform whatever other settlements they need to do to convert), do they give you the conversion rate at the time you asked for it or at the time they did the conversion? Or do you get the worst of the two?
      - fnordfnordfnord 5y ago
        KYC is only done once, at account creation.
    - rualca 5y ago
      > But the delay is after the bitcoins are converted to fiat (...) If you're trying to discuss aspects of the transaction then either you focus specifically on the crypto-to-crypto part of the transaction, or the fiat-to-fiat. The crypto-to-crypto part of the transaction is arguably fast but you are forced to address Bitcoin's volatility, which makes it unsuited as a store of value. The fiat-to-fiat aspect of the transaction on the other hand is arguably slower than simple bank transactions, and often with higher cost. Every crypto proponent is doing a colossal disservice to crypto by portraying a romanticized and intensely rose-tainted view of crypto. In truth you're just setting up everyone around you to be disappointed. Between magical schemes where crypto transactions are magically instant and cost-free and pretending that crypto is not highly volatile (see the last Bitcoin 50% crash a couple months ago, or yesterday's flash crash) you're unwittingly pulling a bait-and-switch and in the process turning everyone away from it.
reportgunner 5y ago
yeah and it "pumped" +$3k USD 2 days before that. If you have created your transfer before it and they "cashed out" after it they would have gained valuation of the transfer.
robot_no_419 5y ago
You completely ignored the the part where OP said they often made money in REAL LIFE and injected your own hypothetical of how they could lose money if they chose to buy, send, and sell their assets at a very specific worst case scenario point in time...
- jeromegv 5y ago
  Has nothing to do with "real life". They could either win money, or lose money, that's how volatile bitcoin is. The fact they got lucky and transferred in moments where they made money, doesn't make it a better "real life" scenario. Just makes it a lucky scenario, anecdata that might have been the complete opposite.
  - robot_no_419 5y ago
    But if he was making money on average (which he said he did), then bayesian logic would imply that the average outcome would be to make money. So it's not luck, it's the average outcome. The "unlucky" and unusual event in this case is losing money on Bitcoin based on the prior evidence.
  - fnordfnordfnord 5y ago
    It wasn't luck. The price is frequently volatile but has trended up (to a great degree) since inception.

mupuff1234 5y ago

Didn't you mind that by the time they converted that Bitcoin to local currency - it could have lost xx% of it's value?

tluyben2 5y ago
Or gained.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  People generally do not intend to play roulette while also transferring money to their relatives.
  - Scoundreller 5y ago
    I do a similar thing myself to exchange currencies. My broker will let me buy a stock in Canadian dollars on the Toronto stock market, and then sell it a few days later in US dollars on the US stock market. And vice versa. Many Canadian companies trade on both. Shopify is another that you may be more familiar with (though I don’t use that one). You take some volatility risk over those few days, but on average, you save a lot on fees and make a bit of money over those days. Over enough transactions, even the volatility averages out.
    - el-salvador 5y ago
      How large the spread between two stable currencies USD/CAD can be? Compared to USD and Bitcoin.
      - Scoundreller 5y ago
        If you’re a bank converting millions, you get good rates. When you’re converting 0-$100k at a bank, they charge you 1.5% - 3% (for lower amounts).
    - wavefunction 5y ago

haskellandchill 5y ago

So the argument would be because bitcoin is useful for money transfer or some other activity I need to buy some even though I don't need to do the activity to preserve my purchasing power against others who are finding uses for bitcoin and driving adoptation? I personally have no use for bitcoin but am I essentially forced to buy some as a hedge against other economic actors gaining from holding bitcoin, or am I able to ignore it at no economic loss to myself.

lotsofpulp 5y ago
> I personally have no use for bitcoin but am I essentially forced to buy some as a hedge against other economic actors gaining from holding bitcoin, or am I able to ignore it at no economic loss to myself. This situation exists all the time with all asset classes, not just Bitcoin.
lottin 5y ago
No, you don't have to buy it. Even in the impossible event that bitcoin became very successful, your net worth and income should remain unaffected by the price of bitcoin.

betwixthewires 5y ago

FYI you didn't really use bitcoin, you used coinbase, a service. You may have seen the accounting denominated in bitcoin, but what you actually did was move coinbase balances around, this never actually had to be finalized on the bitcoin network, only on coinbase's books.

fnordfnordfnord 5y ago
Yeah, that's fair.