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Did you know that there is very poor evidence for the benefits of cannabis and creativity? As a self-proclaimed "high-functioning cannabis user" cannabis is an

Did you know that there is very poor evidence for the benefits of cannabis and creativity? As a self-proclaimed "high-functioning cannabis user" cannabis is an incredibly reliably part of my creative process. It almost always results in some kind of powerful idea or insight. While I'm fully aware that it is possible that I'm a deluded drug user, I suspect it's the lack of research — and potentially a failure of methods. That is, I'm not sure cannabis would help me think of more uses for a brick (a test of divergent thinking) nor help me gain insight into how to tack a candle to a wall (a classic test of convergent thinking and insight). But there is a definite change in the clarity and volume of my inner voice and mental imagery — and this can be extremely useful for conceiving new product concepts.

the-dude 5y ago
Are there prolonged periods of non-use when you notice the lack of creativity? Genuinely curious, being stoner myself. I will add that alcohol helps for my creativity from time to time too, it seems to break barriers.
- corobo 5y ago
  I am fully convinced Ballmer's Peak is a legitimate phenomenon For the 10k: https://xkcd.com/323/ https://xkcd.com/323/
- louhike 5y ago
  Alcohol helps me too if I want to compose music. I tends to experiment more. But I've realized that composing just after getting out of bed is as efficient, as my mind is cloudy. So I'd rather recommend that as relying on alcohol isn't the best idea.
yoloyoloyoloa 5y ago
Anecdotal evidence is all you need in my opinion if they "scientific community" wont recognise it.
yann2 5y ago
You need to report something a little more interesting than that. I mean people are busy, so if one chimp walks into the lab with a notebook filled with Ramanujam scribbles and another walks in saying their inner voice is louder which chimp do you think gets studied?
- playpause 5y ago
  The talking one
archibaldJ 5y ago
I like to view THC as performing a natural transformation to the attention mechanism in the brain so attention per unit time is more distributed among all modules, and thus more combinatorial interesting things can arise. (I’m still in the midst of foramlizing a mathematical model from a PLT perspective.) But one noticable downside to it is that the more distributed the attentions are, the more likely you are to get stuck in a local maximum as the less cohesive your modules become in terms of utilization (eg for abstracted goals) and the data-granularity gets too fine-grained to be useful from a cybernetic perspective. The effect differs from person to person. (Eg Short-timespan-wise people lie on the sofa or keep laughing, etc, the stereotypical notion being “stoned”, and long-term-wise if things are repeated in the same settings over, reliance is formed (as a coping mechanism for stress perhaps) and person becomes a typical unproductive “stoner”)) Therefore the most important thing here are 1. the settings 2. Don’t take it lightly. Though thc is not as powerful a disruption to the default mode network as lsd/dmt, one should never take it mindlessly and too regularly. Learn to grow out of it, not in.
- dr_dshiv 5y ago
  Totally agree. I'd add that THC intoxication produces a state-dependent memory that that can be cultivated. I have put an enormous effort into cultivating my average high with positive and creative stimuli— amazing concerts, art museums, art creation, writing, tops of mountains, philosophical discussions, etc. If you mostly smoke cannabis for the purpose of zoning out on the couch, trying to subsequently use cannabis for creative purposes is likely to be less effective.
  - atatatat 5y ago
    Different strains do different things to different people. Saw no mention of this in the former two walls.
    - BizarroLand 5y ago
      For people who are interested in creativity/"high-deas" and would prefer to not get the munchies so much, look into finding a high THCV variant such as Durban Poison. https://www.crescolabs.com/cannabinoids/thcv/ https://www.crescolabs.com/cannabinoids/thcv/
teekert 5y ago
I used to get this feeling while I was drunk (haven't been drunk in a while), I once recorded myself, my insights did not produce the same clarity and euphoria while sober, quite the contrary. Did you really prove that the ideas were a substantial part of some quantifiable success?
- dr_dshiv 5y ago
  Carl Sagan, one of the most famous high-functioning cannabis users, noted the difficulty of remembering the clarity of the idea the next day—and he advocated a practice of consistent writing/recording. Here is the full text he wrote in 1969: https://www.organism.earth/library/document/mr-x https://www.organism.earth/library/document/mr-x
pram 5y ago
Are you sure it’s not just the habit? When I tried to stop vaping I literally couldn’t bring myself to draw or paint anything. Then once the nicotine started flowing again I had no problems. I assume the act of smoking and drawing has become intertwined in my brain. That or it just puts me into a deeper state of concentration. Not sure, but it’s interesting how addictions can become ancillary to creativity/productivity.
- the-dude 5y ago
  I stopped smoking cigarettes and noticed it acted as a pep for me ( the smoking, not the stopping ).
  - CaptainJustin 5y ago
    What does `pep` mean in this context?
    - the-dude 5y ago
      Pepper -> energizing.
- Broken_Hippo 5y ago
  That is realistically just an adjustment: I mean, when you stop vaping, it affects the way you feel and think for a while. That makes creating weird. The same can happen after moving, marriage, divorce, death, and so on.
- cheschire 5y ago
  And interestingly I experienced the opposite as well, working on my car made me crave cigarettes for years after I quit. No other specific act, and generally I was even starting to get turned off by the smell when I passed it on the street. But that specific act was always associated with smoking and working with friends on cars.
  - the-dude 5y ago
amelius 5y ago
How do you know if you wouldn't be more creative if you never had touched the substance?
- kick_in_the_dor 5y ago
  Well...you smoke and then you become creative XD In all seriousness, I've noticed that light THC gummies (specifically sativa dominant) help me visualize hard math problems, like learning linear algebra. Perhaps it's just the enhanced focus...but I definitely notice a difference when studying on THC vs sober.
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    When you learn something, you tend to recall it better in the same environment as you learnt it. Are you sure you haven't just learnt all your “hard math” on THC, so it's easier to recall when you're on THC?
fsloth 5y ago
Do you record the ideas or insights while under substance? I mean do you just feel more creative, or have you analyzed your output while sober and come this conclusion through analysis ? (I'm asking because I felt really creative while drunk, tried to capture my concepts in writing, and found them to be useless drivel when sober).
- iaml 5y ago
  Not gp, but I concur that I got a lot of interesting ideas that way, some of which are still waiting to be implemented. And I wouldn't compare it to alcohol, at least for me it's not very useful that way.
- bodge5000 5y ago
  This is my general opinion of drugs that can be said to heighten certain skills, that you feel like its heightened when in actual fact anything useful that came out of it would have done so whilst sober, but whilst sober it wouldn't feel like the relevation that it did whilst on the drug. It's not even that unique to drugs. Theres TV shows which I've found make you feel more intelligent for getting the twist or whatever, where in reality it was actually quite simple. The only time I think it can be helpful (though I can only testify for alcohol here) is that it can help stop analysis paralysis and make you more confident in your decisions. They may be wrong decisions, but thats not the point
johnkpaul 5y ago
I feel this way for the safety of all GRAS[1] foods. There's never actually been any study on the safety of most of the things that we eat. Particularly, for me, I wonder if sucrose would come up a-ok or end up on the cutting room floor of foods. [1] https://www.fda.gov/food/food-ingredients-packaging/generally-recognized-safe-gras https://www.fda.gov/food/food-ingredients-packaging/generall...
IanSanders 5y ago
As a non-smoker I believe you. There was a thread recently where one of the top comments was about "non-usual" mental states provoking new ideas, even alcohol / sleep deprivation (while not being used to it). I definitely experienced some breakthroughs after skipping a sleep and suspect the principle is somewhat similar.
- lioeters 5y ago
  A quick search yields some ideas for "non-pharmacological methods to induce altered states of consciousness". - Hypnosis - Meditation - Spiritual experience - Learning - Insight - Understanding - Emotional development - Sensitivity training - Mental development - Recreation > Emotions influence behavior that alters the state of consciousness. Emotions can be influenced by various stimuli. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_state_of_consciousness#Non-pharmacological https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_state_of_consciousness...
pps 5y ago
> a definite change in the clarity and volume of my inner voice and mental imagery It's normal that these things varies, depending on the state you're in. Any kind of dopamine rush (thinking positively about future endeavours, thinking about something you would like to have, etc.) will make your inner voice louder and faster and you'll be imagining things more easily. I guess cannabis is somehow doing this for you, but you can also learn to do this without it (The Molecule of More by Daniel Z. Lieberman is great if you want to understand how one can do this).
- reciprocity 5y ago
  Great book.
layperson102 5y ago
Research might be difficult. The issue that makes me cautious is that I don't know any person whose output I admire (scientists, composers, artists) who took these drugs. The only exception I know is Erdos with amphetamines, which is of course different. I'm a snob who does not appreciate Kerouac, rock musicians etc. It may be different for others who do.
- dr_dshiv 5y ago
  What percent of public figures that you admire do you think would admit to cannabis use? Even Carl Sagan, a prolific user, advocated for its creative benefits under a pseudonym. Cannabis use is still very taboo in most professional settings. More taboo than religion, sexuality, mental health, etc. But still we know that composers like Chopin and Berlioz were Opium users.
talentedcoin 5y ago
I think the longer you go you may develop a different perspective, although it seems you might have a glimmer of it already. The endocannabinoid system biologically encodes salience, and so when you take cannabis everything (especially the internal world of thoughts and ideas) seems interesting and important, often moreso than it would be without the substance interfering with your perception.

the-dude 5y ago

Are there prolonged periods of non-use when you notice the lack of creativity? Genuinely curious, being stoner myself. I will add that alcohol helps for my creativity from time to time too, it seems to break barriers.

corobo 5y ago
I am fully convinced Ballmer's Peak is a legitimate phenomenon For the 10k: https://xkcd.com/323/ https://xkcd.com/323/
louhike 5y ago
Alcohol helps me too if I want to compose music. I tends to experiment more. But I've realized that composing just after getting out of bed is as efficient, as my mind is cloudy. So I'd rather recommend that as relying on alcohol isn't the best idea.

yoloyoloyoloa 5y ago

Anecdotal evidence is all you need in my opinion if they "scientific community" wont recognise it.

yann2 5y ago

You need to report something a little more interesting than that. I mean people are busy, so if one chimp walks into the lab with a notebook filled with Ramanujam scribbles and another walks in saying their inner voice is louder which chimp do you think gets studied?

playpause 5y ago
The talking one

archibaldJ 5y ago

I like to view THC as performing a natural transformation to the attention mechanism in the brain so attention per unit time is more distributed among all modules, and thus more combinatorial interesting things can arise. (I’m still in the midst of foramlizing a mathematical model from a PLT perspective.) But one noticable downside to it is that the more distributed the attentions are, the more likely you are to get stuck in a local maximum as the less cohesive your modules become in terms of utilization (eg for abstracted goals) and the data-granularity gets too fine-grained to be useful from a cybernetic perspective. The effect differs from person to person. (Eg Short-timespan-wise people lie on the sofa or keep laughing, etc, the stereotypical notion being “stoned”, and long-term-wise if things are repeated in the same settings over, reliance is formed (as a coping mechanism for stress perhaps) and person becomes a typical unproductive “stoner”)) Therefore the most important thing here are 1. the settings 2. Don’t take it lightly. Though thc is not as powerful a disruption to the default mode network as lsd/dmt, one should never take it mindlessly and too regularly. Learn to grow out of it, not in.

dr_dshiv 5y ago
Totally agree. I'd add that THC intoxication produces a state-dependent memory that that can be cultivated. I have put an enormous effort into cultivating my average high with positive and creative stimuli— amazing concerts, art museums, art creation, writing, tops of mountains, philosophical discussions, etc. If you mostly smoke cannabis for the purpose of zoning out on the couch, trying to subsequently use cannabis for creative purposes is likely to be less effective.
- atatatat 5y ago
  Different strains do different things to different people. Saw no mention of this in the former two walls.
  - BizarroLand 5y ago
    For people who are interested in creativity/"high-deas" and would prefer to not get the munchies so much, look into finding a high THCV variant such as Durban Poison. https://www.crescolabs.com/cannabinoids/thcv/ https://www.crescolabs.com/cannabinoids/thcv/

teekert 5y ago

I used to get this feeling while I was drunk (haven't been drunk in a while), I once recorded myself, my insights did not produce the same clarity and euphoria while sober, quite the contrary. Did you really prove that the ideas were a substantial part of some quantifiable success?

dr_dshiv 5y ago
Carl Sagan, one of the most famous high-functioning cannabis users, noted the difficulty of remembering the clarity of the idea the next day—and he advocated a practice of consistent writing/recording. Here is the full text he wrote in 1969: https://www.organism.earth/library/document/mr-x https://www.organism.earth/library/document/mr-x

pram 5y ago

Are you sure it’s not just the habit? When I tried to stop vaping I literally couldn’t bring myself to draw or paint anything. Then once the nicotine started flowing again I had no problems. I assume the act of smoking and drawing has become intertwined in my brain. That or it just puts me into a deeper state of concentration. Not sure, but it’s interesting how addictions can become ancillary to creativity/productivity.

the-dude 5y ago
I stopped smoking cigarettes and noticed it acted as a pep for me ( the smoking, not the stopping ).
- CaptainJustin 5y ago
  What does `pep` mean in this context?
  - the-dude 5y ago
    Pepper -> energizing.
Broken_Hippo 5y ago
That is realistically just an adjustment: I mean, when you stop vaping, it affects the way you feel and think for a while. That makes creating weird. The same can happen after moving, marriage, divorce, death, and so on.
cheschire 5y ago
And interestingly I experienced the opposite as well, working on my car made me crave cigarettes for years after I quit. No other specific act, and generally I was even starting to get turned off by the smell when I passed it on the street. But that specific act was always associated with smoking and working with friends on cars.
- the-dude 5y ago

amelius 5y ago

How do you know if you wouldn't be more creative if you never had touched the substance?

kick_in_the_dor 5y ago
Well...you smoke and then you become creative XD In all seriousness, I've noticed that light THC gummies (specifically sativa dominant) help me visualize hard math problems, like learning linear algebra. Perhaps it's just the enhanced focus...but I definitely notice a difference when studying on THC vs sober.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  When you learn something, you tend to recall it better in the same environment as you learnt it. Are you sure you haven't just learnt all your “hard math” on THC, so it's easier to recall when you're on THC?

fsloth 5y ago

Do you record the ideas or insights while under substance? I mean do you just feel more creative, or have you analyzed your output while sober and come this conclusion through analysis ? (I'm asking because I felt really creative while drunk, tried to capture my concepts in writing, and found them to be useless drivel when sober).

iaml 5y ago
Not gp, but I concur that I got a lot of interesting ideas that way, some of which are still waiting to be implemented. And I wouldn't compare it to alcohol, at least for me it's not very useful that way.
bodge5000 5y ago
This is my general opinion of drugs that can be said to heighten certain skills, that you feel like its heightened when in actual fact anything useful that came out of it would have done so whilst sober, but whilst sober it wouldn't feel like the relevation that it did whilst on the drug. It's not even that unique to drugs. Theres TV shows which I've found make you feel more intelligent for getting the twist or whatever, where in reality it was actually quite simple. The only time I think it can be helpful (though I can only testify for alcohol here) is that it can help stop analysis paralysis and make you more confident in your decisions. They may be wrong decisions, but thats not the point

johnkpaul 5y ago

I feel this way for the safety of all GRAS[1] foods. There's never actually been any study on the safety of most of the things that we eat. Particularly, for me, I wonder if sucrose would come up a-ok or end up on the cutting room floor of foods. [1] https://www.fda.gov/food/food-ingredients-packaging/generally-recognized-safe-gras https://www.fda.gov/food/food-ingredients-packaging/generall...

IanSanders 5y ago

As a non-smoker I believe you. There was a thread recently where one of the top comments was about "non-usual" mental states provoking new ideas, even alcohol / sleep deprivation (while not being used to it). I definitely experienced some breakthroughs after skipping a sleep and suspect the principle is somewhat similar.

lioeters 5y ago
A quick search yields some ideas for "non-pharmacological methods to induce altered states of consciousness". - Hypnosis - Meditation - Spiritual experience - Learning - Insight - Understanding - Emotional development - Sensitivity training - Mental development - Recreation > Emotions influence behavior that alters the state of consciousness. Emotions can be influenced by various stimuli. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_state_of_consciousness#Non-pharmacological https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_state_of_consciousness...

pps 5y ago

> a definite change in the clarity and volume of my inner voice and mental imagery It's normal that these things varies, depending on the state you're in. Any kind of dopamine rush (thinking positively about future endeavours, thinking about something you would like to have, etc.) will make your inner voice louder and faster and you'll be imagining things more easily. I guess cannabis is somehow doing this for you, but you can also learn to do this without it (The Molecule of More by Daniel Z. Lieberman is great if you want to understand how one can do this).

reciprocity 5y ago
Great book.

layperson102 5y ago

Research might be difficult. The issue that makes me cautious is that I don't know any person whose output I admire (scientists, composers, artists) who took these drugs. The only exception I know is Erdos with amphetamines, which is of course different. I'm a snob who does not appreciate Kerouac, rock musicians etc. It may be different for others who do.

dr_dshiv 5y ago
What percent of public figures that you admire do you think would admit to cannabis use? Even Carl Sagan, a prolific user, advocated for its creative benefits under a pseudonym. Cannabis use is still very taboo in most professional settings. More taboo than religion, sexuality, mental health, etc. But still we know that composers like Chopin and Berlioz were Opium users.

talentedcoin 5y ago

I think the longer you go you may develop a different perspective, although it seems you might have a glimmer of it already. The endocannabinoid system biologically encodes salience, and so when you take cannabis everything (especially the internal world of thoughts and ideas) seems interesting and important, often moreso than it would be without the substance interfering with your perception.