5 ms·

Are there any successful cryptocurrencies that aren't based on proof-of-waste? El Salvador's and Panama's moves seem like the start of a bad trend.

by mkl 5y ago

almavi 5y ago
I read a interesting take on this, in case you're interested: https://gist.github.com/joepie91/daa93b9686f554ac7097158383b97838#so-theres-this-proof-of-stake-thing-right https://gist.github.com/joepie91/daa93b9686f554ac7097158383b...
- stavros 5y ago
  That article performs some sleight of hand, where nodes "control" the currency. Nodes sign transactions publicly, they don't control anything. They can't covertly pick the wrong transaction to sign, if they do it will be very visible.
  - almavi 5y ago
    I mean, I may be wrong, but don't consensus between miners determine whether a block is valid or not? Specifically, 51% of mining power determines this, AFAIK.
    - stavros 5y ago
      Yes, but you can verify blocks independently and see that someone verified a block that was actually invalid. It's not something that can remain secret.
      - almavi 5y ago
        But you won't verify the blockchain and call every node to say "hey! big corp X is cheating". The consensus protocol is what it is and if 51% agree on anything it will go on. We are at the mercy of 4 giants messing with the chain. Also probably simple double spending could be noticed and proven wrong but, for instance, rolling back a transaction would still be possible breaking the immutability of the blockchain.
ackbar03 5y ago
Well I guess bitcoin remains the most established. I guess they could switch to ether at some point if it goes well, but I remember something about ether not being fully decentralized? I'm not even a crypto nut but these are pretty interesting developments
- almavi 5y ago
  Indeed: https://bitcoinera.app/arewedecentralizedyet/ https://bitcoinera.app/arewedecentralizedyet/
- qecez 5y ago
  Why would anyone look beyond Bitcoin defeats me
  - mypastself 5y ago
    Monero is far superior with regards to anonimity, if that’s what you’re looking for.
    - qecez 5y ago
      *anonymity Bitcoin's Lightning Network is private enough, thank you very much.
      - mypastself 5y ago
        It's great if it's private enough for you, but not everyone is satisfied with LN's level of privacy. Your original question was why anyone would use a different cryptocurrency. Thank you for correcting me, but since you yourself wrote a comment saying "Why would anyone look beyond Bitcoin defeats me", I’m wondering if you really corrected me because you believe spelling and grammar are important.
        qecez 5y ago
        Are you personally not satisfied with LN's level of privacy? If you're not, mind explaining why?
em3rgent0rdr 5y ago
Ethereum is right now in the process of migrating to proof-of-stake. https://ethereum.org/en/eth2/ https://ethereum.org/en/eth2/ Miners are already staking using the more energy-efficient validation.
- qecez 5y ago
  Running a T-account in Excel is even more energy-efficient.
  - em3rgent0rdr 5y ago
    A recent report "Energy Footprint of Blockchain Consensus Mechanisms Beyond Proof-of-Work" (http://blockchain.cs.ucl.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/UCL_CBT_DPS_Q32021_updated.pdf http://blockchain.cs.ucl.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/UC...) has estimated (Table VI) the energy consumed per transaction of leading proof-of-stake and found that some exceed the efficiency of VisaNet (including Eth 2.0 on a high-throughput projection): Platform | Per transaction (kW h/tx) Eth. 2.0 | 0.00009 – 0.00286 (High throughput projection) Eth. 2.0 | 0.01823 – 0.55713 (Low throughput projection) Algorand | 0.00017 – 0.00534 Cardano | 0.01239 – 0.37854 Polkadot | 0.00378 – 0.11556 Tezos | 0.00036 – 0.01096 Bitcoin | 360.39300 – 3691.40700 VisaNet | 0.00358
jazzyjackson 5y ago
nano is interesting to watch. it is one of those DAGs/lattices, like stellar. they were vulnerable to spam and got written off after a couple exchange scams soured the early adopters and ddoses brought the network to a halt, but years later they’ve patched the place up and maybe it’ll work there’s even a cute/terrifying faucet app, “wenano”, where people can setup a geofence and disburse funds to anyone who shows up, pokemon go style mostly a dollar or two for being in a certain city, but I can imagine the chaos that allowing more specific geofences and higher bounties can cause. on the other hand, humanitarian crisis on the turkish border? some benevolents can set up a free-money faucet right in the middle of the refugee camp, people around the world can “top off” the faucet and keep the the funds flowing freaky future coming up quick
- luckylion 5y ago
  > there’s even a cute/terrifying faucet app, “wenano”, where people can setup a geofence and disburse funds to anyone who shows up, pokemon go style How does that work, can't you just fake the location service on your phone and "be" there? Or do they require 24/7 tracking and checking whether you've been a the airport etc?
  - jazzyjackson 5y ago
    I’ll try it tomorrow and let you know, I was looking up ways to spoof gps through devtools but I can imagine some countermeasures, namely, comparing your location when you try to claim a faucet and deciding you arrived awfully fast from newfoundland to the maltese islands. If I can only teleport my location as fast as I can drive, it would hardly be worth it.
    - chii 5y ago
      Create a million accounts, each spread out in a grid around the world. Then, as soon as a claimable geolocation appears, you use the closest to claim it!
      - tomtomistaken 5y ago
mypastself 5y ago
If you count market cap as success, the PoS protocol Cardano (ADA) is currently at #3, right behind the two big ones (BTC and ETH). If you mean successful adoption as a currency, there is no such thing yet, PoW or PoS.
- qecez 5y ago
  Market cap is a useless metric. All altcoins without exception are a leveraged way to play Bitcoin.
  - mypastself 5y ago
    You’re free to offer your definition of success, then.
    - qecez 5y ago
      Don't know, perhaps decentralization?
      - mypastself 5y ago
        What about it?
johanneskanybal 5y ago
My money is on Ethereum getting there first while pointing out it's unfair to call something creating value pure waste. Siding with gold miners and bloated corrupt banking systems as the future on a tech site seems weird.
skinnyasianboi 5y ago
There are many alternatives to the proof of work concept. Cardano uses proof of stake with a fraction of energy cost and is academic proven with 100+ peer reviewed papers. Beautiful project
- ikerdanzel 5y ago
  People use crypto purely because of speculative nature. Despite Bitcoin is one of the worst off crypto implementation, it is the most highly valued because network effect and speculation. In future don't be surprise private enterprise built nuclear plant purely to power up their crypto mining.
basch 5y ago
Solana has had quite a month. https://www.notboring.co/p/solana-summer https://www.notboring.co/p/solana-summer >Solana uses a Proof of Stake consensus mechanism plus Proof of History, a decentralized source of time that Solana Labs CEO and founder Anatoly Yakovenko told me is “the implementation of the arrow of time in math.” Sounds mind-bending, and it is, but what it means is that transactions on Solana are verifiably ordered without all nodes needing to agree simultaneously. That’s what makes it so fast. At the rate it's been growing, relative to other major coins, it could be a top 4-5 coin very soon. It currently sits right behind Binance Coin and Tether at #6. https://www.coingecko.com/en https://www.coingecko.com/en
nl 5y ago
Yes. There are a number of "Level 1" blockchains[1] that are proof-of-stake. Ethereum is moving to PoS. Algorand was just announced as the level 1 chain for the El Salvador[2], while Cardano and Solana are both pretty big chains. Other contenders include NEAR. [1] https://medium.com/the-capital/layer-1-vs-layer-2-what-you-need-to-know-about-different-blockchain-layer-solutions-69f91904ce40 https://medium.com/the-capital/layer-1-vs-layer-2-what-you-n... [2] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/el-salvador-develop-blockchain-infrastructure-084104876.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/el-salvador-develop-blockchai...
satronaut 5y ago
Can you define proof of waste? I haven't heard of that protocol?

Are there any successful cryptocurrencies that aren't based on proof-of-waste? El Salvador's and Panama's moves seem like the start of a bad trend.

by mkl 5y ago

Are there any successful cryptocurrencies that aren't based on proof-of-waste? El Salvador's and Panama's moves seem like the start of a bad trend.

almavi 5y ago

I read a interesting take on this, in case you're interested: https://gist.github.com/joepie91/daa93b9686f554ac7097158383b97838#so-theres-this-proof-of-stake-thing-right https://gist.github.com/joepie91/daa93b9686f554ac7097158383b...

stavros 5y ago
That article performs some sleight of hand, where nodes "control" the currency. Nodes sign transactions publicly, they don't control anything. They can't covertly pick the wrong transaction to sign, if they do it will be very visible.
- almavi 5y ago
  I mean, I may be wrong, but don't consensus between miners determine whether a block is valid or not? Specifically, 51% of mining power determines this, AFAIK.
  - stavros 5y ago
    Yes, but you can verify blocks independently and see that someone verified a block that was actually invalid. It's not something that can remain secret.
    - almavi 5y ago
      But you won't verify the blockchain and call every node to say "hey! big corp X is cheating". The consensus protocol is what it is and if 51% agree on anything it will go on. We are at the mercy of 4 giants messing with the chain. Also probably simple double spending could be noticed and proven wrong but, for instance, rolling back a transaction would still be possible breaking the immutability of the blockchain.

ackbar03 5y ago

Well I guess bitcoin remains the most established. I guess they could switch to ether at some point if it goes well, but I remember something about ether not being fully decentralized? I'm not even a crypto nut but these are pretty interesting developments

almavi 5y ago
Indeed: https://bitcoinera.app/arewedecentralizedyet/ https://bitcoinera.app/arewedecentralizedyet/
qecez 5y ago
Why would anyone look beyond Bitcoin defeats me
- mypastself 5y ago
  Monero is far superior with regards to anonimity, if that’s what you’re looking for.
  - qecez 5y ago
    *anonymity Bitcoin's Lightning Network is private enough, thank you very much.
    - mypastself 5y ago
      It's great if it's private enough for you, but not everyone is satisfied with LN's level of privacy. Your original question was why anyone would use a different cryptocurrency. Thank you for correcting me, but since you yourself wrote a comment saying "Why would anyone look beyond Bitcoin defeats me", I’m wondering if you really corrected me because you believe spelling and grammar are important.
      - qecez 5y ago
        Are you personally not satisfied with LN's level of privacy? If you're not, mind explaining why?

em3rgent0rdr 5y ago

Ethereum is right now in the process of migrating to proof-of-stake. https://ethereum.org/en/eth2/ https://ethereum.org/en/eth2/ Miners are already staking using the more energy-efficient validation.

qecez 5y ago
Running a T-account in Excel is even more energy-efficient.
- em3rgent0rdr 5y ago
  A recent report "Energy Footprint of Blockchain Consensus Mechanisms Beyond Proof-of-Work" (http://blockchain.cs.ucl.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/UCL_CBT_DPS_Q32021_updated.pdf http://blockchain.cs.ucl.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/UC...) has estimated (Table VI) the energy consumed per transaction of leading proof-of-stake and found that some exceed the efficiency of VisaNet (including Eth 2.0 on a high-throughput projection): Platform | Per transaction (kW h/tx) Eth. 2.0 | 0.00009 – 0.00286 (High throughput projection) Eth. 2.0 | 0.01823 – 0.55713 (Low throughput projection) Algorand | 0.00017 – 0.00534 Cardano | 0.01239 – 0.37854 Polkadot | 0.00378 – 0.11556 Tezos | 0.00036 – 0.01096 Bitcoin | 360.39300 – 3691.40700 VisaNet | 0.00358

jazzyjackson 5y ago

nano is interesting to watch. it is one of those DAGs/lattices, like stellar. they were vulnerable to spam and got written off after a couple exchange scams soured the early adopters and ddoses brought the network to a halt, but years later they’ve patched the place up and maybe it’ll work there’s even a cute/terrifying faucet app, “wenano”, where people can setup a geofence and disburse funds to anyone who shows up, pokemon go style mostly a dollar or two for being in a certain city, but I can imagine the chaos that allowing more specific geofences and higher bounties can cause. on the other hand, humanitarian crisis on the turkish border? some benevolents can set up a free-money faucet right in the middle of the refugee camp, people around the world can “top off” the faucet and keep the the funds flowing freaky future coming up quick

luckylion 5y ago
> there’s even a cute/terrifying faucet app, “wenano”, where people can setup a geofence and disburse funds to anyone who shows up, pokemon go style How does that work, can't you just fake the location service on your phone and "be" there? Or do they require 24/7 tracking and checking whether you've been a the airport etc?
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  I’ll try it tomorrow and let you know, I was looking up ways to spoof gps through devtools but I can imagine some countermeasures, namely, comparing your location when you try to claim a faucet and deciding you arrived awfully fast from newfoundland to the maltese islands. If I can only teleport my location as fast as I can drive, it would hardly be worth it.
  - chii 5y ago
    Create a million accounts, each spread out in a grid around the world. Then, as soon as a claimable geolocation appears, you use the closest to claim it!
    - tomtomistaken 5y ago

mypastself 5y ago

If you count market cap as success, the PoS protocol Cardano (ADA) is currently at #3, right behind the two big ones (BTC and ETH). If you mean successful adoption as a currency, there is no such thing yet, PoW or PoS.

qecez 5y ago
Market cap is a useless metric. All altcoins without exception are a leveraged way to play Bitcoin.
- mypastself 5y ago
  You’re free to offer your definition of success, then.
  - qecez 5y ago
    Don't know, perhaps decentralization?
    - mypastself 5y ago
      What about it?

johanneskanybal 5y ago

My money is on Ethereum getting there first while pointing out it's unfair to call something creating value pure waste. Siding with gold miners and bloated corrupt banking systems as the future on a tech site seems weird.

skinnyasianboi 5y ago

There are many alternatives to the proof of work concept. Cardano uses proof of stake with a fraction of energy cost and is academic proven with 100+ peer reviewed papers. Beautiful project

ikerdanzel 5y ago
People use crypto purely because of speculative nature. Despite Bitcoin is one of the worst off crypto implementation, it is the most highly valued because network effect and speculation. In future don't be surprise private enterprise built nuclear plant purely to power up their crypto mining.

basch 5y ago

Solana has had quite a month. https://www.notboring.co/p/solana-summer https://www.notboring.co/p/solana-summer >Solana uses a Proof of Stake consensus mechanism plus Proof of History, a decentralized source of time that Solana Labs CEO and founder Anatoly Yakovenko told me is “the implementation of the arrow of time in math.” Sounds mind-bending, and it is, but what it means is that transactions on Solana are verifiably ordered without all nodes needing to agree simultaneously. That’s what makes it so fast. At the rate it's been growing, relative to other major coins, it could be a top 4-5 coin very soon. It currently sits right behind Binance Coin and Tether at #6. https://www.coingecko.com/en https://www.coingecko.com/en

nl 5y ago

Yes. There are a number of "Level 1" blockchains[1] that are proof-of-stake. Ethereum is moving to PoS. Algorand was just announced as the level 1 chain for the El Salvador[2], while Cardano and Solana are both pretty big chains. Other contenders include NEAR. [1] https://medium.com/the-capital/layer-1-vs-layer-2-what-you-need-to-know-about-different-blockchain-layer-solutions-69f91904ce40 https://medium.com/the-capital/layer-1-vs-layer-2-what-you-n... [2] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/el-salvador-develop-blockchain-infrastructure-084104876.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/el-salvador-develop-blockchai...

satronaut 5y ago

Can you define proof of waste? I haven't heard of that protocol?