13 ms·

Australia media can be sued for social media comments, court rules

67 points by ximeng 5y ago

tus89 5y ago
Well those same media companies pushed to get paid by Facebook for their own posts (they they post) on Facebook's platform -- so it seems right they should take responsibility for them.
248ff 5y ago
"The High Court in this case has decided that if you are the host of a Facebook page, you are going to be treated as publisher, even though the comments are put there by a third party." ^^ That's just insane.
- jay_kyburz 5y ago
  Yeah, Facebook is clearly the Publisher.
  - exporectomy 5y ago
    Even obvious by the definition of "publisher" for the purposes of that law? I'd think if it was obvious, the courts wouldn't have the opposite opinion. The fact that the newspaper has the power to stop the publication of the comments proves they have a lot of power like a publisher.
    - Aerroon 5y ago
      Facebook has even more power to stop the publishing of those comments though. ISPs also have the power to stop the publishing of those comments. In fact, ISPs are necessary to facilitate the publishing of any comments on the internet.
  - SilverRed 5y ago
    How high up do we go though? Is it the news org that created the space for comments? The website owner who created the tools to create a space? The hosting platform who provided the space to host the website? Or the ISP who delivered those comments to the user? If facebook is responsible, why not the ISP as well? Maybe we should accept that platforms like facebook and reddit are similar to VPS hosting companies where we delegate the legal responsibility down further to the one who used the software to create the space. This might actually be a good thing as delegating down means a much larger group of people moderating and those people moderate as they see fit but become legally responsible for their actions.
    - jay_kyburz 5y ago
      I think you are heading in the right direction. I think it all comes down to moderation. If Facebook was and unmoderated wild west with a linear timeline, then people would know they have to self moderate. Facebook as made some decisions about what is acceptable, then actively promotes that content to other people, that is taking responsibility for the content, so they should be held responsible as well.
    - dzhiurgis 5y ago
      So if news corp moderates some comments out do they also get to sue the comment author?
  - talaketu 5y ago
    Note that Facebook was a not a respondent in the original defamation case. In any case, multiple parties can be responsible for publication. From point 55 of the judgement: > The Court of Appeal was correct to hold that the acts of the appellants in facilitating, encouraging and thereby assisting the posting of comments by the third-party Facebook users rendered them publishers of those comments.
    - jay_kyburz 5y ago
      That's because Facebook is not here in Australia, much deeper pockets, and we already have bullshit laws that consider Google and Facebook carriers (like a telephone company) not publishers. But lets be clear, telephone and electricity companies don't moderate your content, or use algorithms that makes some content easier to find than others.
      - talaketu 5y ago
        What's bullshit is your suggestion that Facebook is not subject to Australian law! For example see News Media and Digital Platforms Mandatory Bargaining Code - it requires platforms such as FB to enter into commercial arrangements with news media (https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Bills_Legislation/Bills_Search_Results/Result?bId=r6652 https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Bills_Legislat...)
        jay_kyburz 5y ago
        Ahh no sorry, I was suggesting that it would have been more expensive and more difficult for somebody to win a defamation suit against a US company. Don't get me started about the mandatory bargaining code. I think the ISP should have held their ground and pulled out of Australia.
- fphhotchips 5y ago
  I disagree that it's obvious. If I run a hosted WordPress blog, and someone comments on that blog, is WordPress the publisher of that comment?
  - jay_kyburz 5y ago
    Is the blog displayed on your domain or theirs? To what extent do they moderate content you have on the blog? Do they promote your blog to other users of WordPress?
    - fphhotchips 5y ago
      I feel like if the answers to those questions change the outcome, then the problem is more nuanced than a single line quote followed by "that's just insane". Especially since I think it's more than possible to come up with a list of questions that justify the court's decision. (Probably something like "does the news org initiate the discussion, do they have the ability to moderate the discussion, does their branding appear prominently on the page").
- Abishek_Muthian 5y ago
  Although insane, I do want strict regulations for Facebook pages. A Facebook page can be sold to anyone, So obviously pages with large number of followers get lot of buy requests often from malicious actors. After years of not using Facebook I found that I'm part of Facebook pages which I don't remember ever following. Which was one of the reasons I deleted the account, I do not want to be accused of following pages involved in criminal activities when I actually followed cute kittens pages 10 years ago.
new_guy 5y ago
Australia is under insane lockdown right now[0], this is an easy and fast way to quell dissent. Just stop people from communicating with each other. [0] https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/news/nsw-health-limits-residents-of-lockeddown-tower-block-to-six-beers-per-day/news-story/0e387ceccee145a611ddb6e38872d3d5 https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/news/nsw-health-lim...
- javagram 5y ago
  The article indicates this was a 4 year legal battle and the last ruling in the 2019 Supreme Court was similar. It has nothing at all to do with Coronavirus. BTW “Australia” is not in lockdown. Some states of Australia are.
  - __john 5y ago
    I wonder if they're using the current crisis to push through an agenda? I couldn't find any information on which Australian states are in lock down but I'd bet the Northern Territory isn't one of them. Relatively few people live there. Do you see where this is going?
    - javagram 5y ago
      > I wonder if they're using the current crisis to push through an agenda? Seems like baseless speculation. > I couldn't find any information on which Australian states are in lock down Wikipedia or google news have the answers you’re looking for. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=COVID-19_pandemic_in_Australia&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop#State_and_territory_articles https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=COVID-19_pandemic...
    - nyolfen 5y ago
      i suspect diversion from the humiliatingly bungled vaccination procurement effort plays into the calculus, shifting anger towards something nominally defensible instead of protracted incompetence
      - 5y ago
javagram 5y ago
Seems similar to the Section 230 conversation in the USA. The newspapers appear to be taking the logical response of switching off Facebook comments going forward.
- jimbob45 5y ago
  Does that mean they’re liable if you share the article to your timeline and discuss it with your friends? I would think no.
  - SilverRed 5y ago
    Does facebook allow you to moderate comments on your own posts? I thought that was limited to company pages.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > The newspapers appear to be taking the logical response of switching off Facebook comments going forward. Which is very welcome in my opinion. Newspaper comments sections (whether on their sites or Facebook) are some most worthless comment sections in existence.
- shapefrog 5y ago
  > The newspapers appear to be taking the logical response of switching off Facebook comments going forward. Absolutely nothing of value will be lost.
  - bhelkey 5y ago
    >> The newspapers appear to be taking the logical response of switching off Facebook comments going forward. > Absolutely nothing of value will be lost. You are currently commenting in the comment section of a linked news story.
    - 5y ago
AussieWog93 5y ago
I honestly understand where the courts are coming from. If you can accept the fact that defamation laws are a valid limit on free speech (which Australians have), then it follows that news organisations shouldn't be able to absolve themselves of all blame after posting inflammatory content, encouragng readers to "share their opinions" and failing to provide any sort of moderation whatsoever.
- temp8964 5y ago
  Of course, if they use comments to increase page views to profit, they should be responsible for moderating the comments.
- SilverRed 5y ago
  As long as all social media companies allow news orgs to turn off comments. I think this is a great law. News comments have long since been the most toxic pool of crap on the internet.
  - hnthrow12997 5y ago
    Given that public gatherings are currently illegal in the majority of Australia and the government are passing draconian laws every week what do you think the average Australian who disagrees with them should do?
    - SilverRed 5y ago
      It is perfectly legal to disagree with them. You just can't say things already illegal and have been illegal for a very long time. Or publicly plan a mass illegal event. This law just specifies who is responsible for the laws being broken.
      - hnthrow12997 5y ago
        so you can disagree with them, just not online or in public or in private with anyone not in your household? Do you see any issues with this?
talaketu 5y ago
Here is the judgement: https://eresources.hcourt.gov.au/downloadPdf/2021/HCA/27 https://eresources.hcourt.gov.au/downloadPdf/2021/HCA/27
thinkingemote 5y ago
There seems to be, within the Australian users of HN a strong pro-censorship and anti free speech feeling. When the US users wake up, we should expect to see more push back on this story. I'm continually puzzled by the cultural reasons for such but it could be that these users are being honest and unfiltered with their own posts on social media. Perhaps americans are more filtered? I suspect, politically, that it's because of two things: Firstly, News Corp which has poisoned the well, it has made these users suspect and distrustful of all media now and welcoming of their governments censorship. Secondly, it's due to the coronavirus lockdown implementations and associated anti-lockdown protests where the concept of free speech is now associated with harm and danger to themselves and their community. Culturally, it could be that the users are members of the urban-living educated tech literate class. This class, and class issues generally is a new thing for Australia. Australia thinks of itself as generally classless and equal. I think we are seeing a kind of new tech class but without the informal rules (e.g. filtering, politeness) governing how more entrenched class based societies operate. But as I say, I'm puzzled and guessing here. It's certainly the only English speaking country where the users appear to be both champions of their government actions and anti news. Perhaps theres more nuance. It could be that these users are actually just being honest and unfiltered in their posts here, which is sort of ironic given the nature of the featured article.
- conz 5y ago
  In general, there is no less of an anti-censorship stance among Australians than among those in the US. What we do have in Australia - with its accompanying advantages and disadvantages - are strong protections against defamation, particularly from the media. And it's that machinery which is at work here. Nothing is stopping the media continuing to allow comments on social media posts, if they accept the legal risks associated with defamation, or they enact a sufficient level of moderation for content which carries that risk. This is a purely commercial play, not a governmental censorship one. None of this excuses our federal government, which continues to veer towards the authoritarian end of the spectrum. But that's another topic. EDIT: fixed typo.
mikewarot 5y ago
I'm glad HN isn't hosted in Australia, or I'd have to find another hangout. It seems like we're going to be saying farewell to any web sites hosted in Australia. If you can be sued for any random thing hosted on your servers, unless you've got a fire brigade of lawyers on tap, you're just waiting to be sued out of existence.

67 points by ximeng 5y ago

Well those same media companies pushed to get paid by Facebook for their own posts (they they post) on Facebook's platform -- so it seems right they should take responsibility for them.

248ff 5y ago

"The High Court in this case has decided that if you are the host of a Facebook page, you are going to be treated as publisher, even though the comments are put there by a third party." ^^ That's just insane.

jay_kyburz 5y ago
Yeah, Facebook is clearly the Publisher.
- exporectomy 5y ago
  Even obvious by the definition of "publisher" for the purposes of that law? I'd think if it was obvious, the courts wouldn't have the opposite opinion. The fact that the newspaper has the power to stop the publication of the comments proves they have a lot of power like a publisher.
  - Aerroon 5y ago
    Facebook has even more power to stop the publishing of those comments though. ISPs also have the power to stop the publishing of those comments. In fact, ISPs are necessary to facilitate the publishing of any comments on the internet.
- SilverRed 5y ago
  How high up do we go though? Is it the news org that created the space for comments? The website owner who created the tools to create a space? The hosting platform who provided the space to host the website? Or the ISP who delivered those comments to the user? If facebook is responsible, why not the ISP as well? Maybe we should accept that platforms like facebook and reddit are similar to VPS hosting companies where we delegate the legal responsibility down further to the one who used the software to create the space. This might actually be a good thing as delegating down means a much larger group of people moderating and those people moderate as they see fit but become legally responsible for their actions.
  - jay_kyburz 5y ago
    I think you are heading in the right direction. I think it all comes down to moderation. If Facebook was and unmoderated wild west with a linear timeline, then people would know they have to self moderate. Facebook as made some decisions about what is acceptable, then actively promotes that content to other people, that is taking responsibility for the content, so they should be held responsible as well.
  - dzhiurgis 5y ago
    So if news corp moderates some comments out do they also get to sue the comment author?
- talaketu 5y ago
  Note that Facebook was a not a respondent in the original defamation case. In any case, multiple parties can be responsible for publication. From point 55 of the judgement: > The Court of Appeal was correct to hold that the acts of the appellants in facilitating, encouraging and thereby assisting the posting of comments by the third-party Facebook users rendered them publishers of those comments.
  - jay_kyburz 5y ago
    That's because Facebook is not here in Australia, much deeper pockets, and we already have bullshit laws that consider Google and Facebook carriers (like a telephone company) not publishers. But lets be clear, telephone and electricity companies don't moderate your content, or use algorithms that makes some content easier to find than others.
    - talaketu 5y ago
      What's bullshit is your suggestion that Facebook is not subject to Australian law! For example see News Media and Digital Platforms Mandatory Bargaining Code - it requires platforms such as FB to enter into commercial arrangements with news media (https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Bills_Legislation/Bills_Search_Results/Result?bId=r6652 https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Bills_Legislat...)
      - jay_kyburz 5y ago
        Ahh no sorry, I was suggesting that it would have been more expensive and more difficult for somebody to win a defamation suit against a US company. Don't get me started about the mandatory bargaining code. I think the ISP should have held their ground and pulled out of Australia.
fphhotchips 5y ago
I disagree that it's obvious. If I run a hosted WordPress blog, and someone comments on that blog, is WordPress the publisher of that comment?
- jay_kyburz 5y ago
  Is the blog displayed on your domain or theirs? To what extent do they moderate content you have on the blog? Do they promote your blog to other users of WordPress?
  - fphhotchips 5y ago
    I feel like if the answers to those questions change the outcome, then the problem is more nuanced than a single line quote followed by "that's just insane". Especially since I think it's more than possible to come up with a list of questions that justify the court's decision. (Probably something like "does the news org initiate the discussion, do they have the ability to moderate the discussion, does their branding appear prominently on the page").
Abishek_Muthian 5y ago
Although insane, I do want strict regulations for Facebook pages. A Facebook page can be sold to anyone, So obviously pages with large number of followers get lot of buy requests often from malicious actors. After years of not using Facebook I found that I'm part of Facebook pages which I don't remember ever following. Which was one of the reasons I deleted the account, I do not want to be accused of following pages involved in criminal activities when I actually followed cute kittens pages 10 years ago.

new_guy 5y ago

Australia is under insane lockdown right now[0], this is an easy and fast way to quell dissent. Just stop people from communicating with each other. [0] https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/news/nsw-health-limits-residents-of-lockeddown-tower-block-to-six-beers-per-day/news-story/0e387ceccee145a611ddb6e38872d3d5 https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/news/nsw-health-lim...

javagram 5y ago
The article indicates this was a 4 year legal battle and the last ruling in the 2019 Supreme Court was similar. It has nothing at all to do with Coronavirus. BTW “Australia” is not in lockdown. Some states of Australia are.
- __john 5y ago
  I wonder if they're using the current crisis to push through an agenda? I couldn't find any information on which Australian states are in lock down but I'd bet the Northern Territory isn't one of them. Relatively few people live there. Do you see where this is going?
  - javagram 5y ago
    > I wonder if they're using the current crisis to push through an agenda? Seems like baseless speculation. > I couldn't find any information on which Australian states are in lock down Wikipedia or google news have the answers you’re looking for. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=COVID-19_pandemic_in_Australia&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop#State_and_territory_articles https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=COVID-19_pandemic...
  - nyolfen 5y ago
    i suspect diversion from the humiliatingly bungled vaccination procurement effort plays into the calculus, shifting anger towards something nominally defensible instead of protracted incompetence
    - 5y ago

javagram 5y ago

Seems similar to the Section 230 conversation in the USA. The newspapers appear to be taking the logical response of switching off Facebook comments going forward.

jimbob45 5y ago
Does that mean they’re liable if you share the article to your timeline and discuss it with your friends? I would think no.
- SilverRed 5y ago
  Does facebook allow you to moderate comments on your own posts? I thought that was limited to company pages.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
tablespoon 5y ago
> The newspapers appear to be taking the logical response of switching off Facebook comments going forward. Which is very welcome in my opinion. Newspaper comments sections (whether on their sites or Facebook) are some most worthless comment sections in existence.
shapefrog 5y ago
> The newspapers appear to be taking the logical response of switching off Facebook comments going forward. Absolutely nothing of value will be lost.
- bhelkey 5y ago
  >> The newspapers appear to be taking the logical response of switching off Facebook comments going forward. > Absolutely nothing of value will be lost. You are currently commenting in the comment section of a linked news story.
  - 5y ago

AussieWog93 5y ago

I honestly understand where the courts are coming from. If you can accept the fact that defamation laws are a valid limit on free speech (which Australians have), then it follows that news organisations shouldn't be able to absolve themselves of all blame after posting inflammatory content, encouragng readers to "share their opinions" and failing to provide any sort of moderation whatsoever.

temp8964 5y ago
Of course, if they use comments to increase page views to profit, they should be responsible for moderating the comments.
SilverRed 5y ago
As long as all social media companies allow news orgs to turn off comments. I think this is a great law. News comments have long since been the most toxic pool of crap on the internet.
- hnthrow12997 5y ago
  Given that public gatherings are currently illegal in the majority of Australia and the government are passing draconian laws every week what do you think the average Australian who disagrees with them should do?
  - SilverRed 5y ago
    It is perfectly legal to disagree with them. You just can't say things already illegal and have been illegal for a very long time. Or publicly plan a mass illegal event. This law just specifies who is responsible for the laws being broken.
    - hnthrow12997 5y ago
      so you can disagree with them, just not online or in public or in private with anyone not in your household? Do you see any issues with this?

talaketu 5y ago

Here is the judgement: https://eresources.hcourt.gov.au/downloadPdf/2021/HCA/27 https://eresources.hcourt.gov.au/downloadPdf/2021/HCA/27

thinkingemote 5y ago

There seems to be, within the Australian users of HN a strong pro-censorship and anti free speech feeling. When the US users wake up, we should expect to see more push back on this story. I'm continually puzzled by the cultural reasons for such but it could be that these users are being honest and unfiltered with their own posts on social media. Perhaps americans are more filtered? I suspect, politically, that it's because of two things: Firstly, News Corp which has poisoned the well, it has made these users suspect and distrustful of all media now and welcoming of their governments censorship. Secondly, it's due to the coronavirus lockdown implementations and associated anti-lockdown protests where the concept of free speech is now associated with harm and danger to themselves and their community. Culturally, it could be that the users are members of the urban-living educated tech literate class. This class, and class issues generally is a new thing for Australia. Australia thinks of itself as generally classless and equal. I think we are seeing a kind of new tech class but without the informal rules (e.g. filtering, politeness) governing how more entrenched class based societies operate. But as I say, I'm puzzled and guessing here. It's certainly the only English speaking country where the users appear to be both champions of their government actions and anti news. Perhaps theres more nuance. It could be that these users are actually just being honest and unfiltered in their posts here, which is sort of ironic given the nature of the featured article.

conz 5y ago
In general, there is no less of an anti-censorship stance among Australians than among those in the US. What we do have in Australia - with its accompanying advantages and disadvantages - are strong protections against defamation, particularly from the media. And it's that machinery which is at work here. Nothing is stopping the media continuing to allow comments on social media posts, if they accept the legal risks associated with defamation, or they enact a sufficient level of moderation for content which carries that risk. This is a purely commercial play, not a governmental censorship one. None of this excuses our federal government, which continues to veer towards the authoritarian end of the spectrum. But that's another topic. EDIT: fixed typo.

mikewarot 5y ago

I'm glad HN isn't hosted in Australia, or I'd have to find another hangout. It seems like we're going to be saying farewell to any web sites hosted in Australia. If you can be sued for any random thing hosted on your servers, unless you've got a fire brigade of lawyers on tap, you're just waiting to be sued out of existence.