6 ms·

Hospitals not overrun?

hammock 5y ago
Fair point. An overrun issue can be mitigated if a) hospitals would not dismiss unvaccinated staff thereby leading them to be understaffed (an unstaffed bed = not a bed, which is one reason why hospitals "don't have enough beds"), and b) US medical staff would accept more of the treatment options available in other countries (Japan, India, etc) such as ivermectin.
- dbt00 5y ago
  Unvaccinated staff get sick and die, and staff members of all sorts of vaccination status can get sick and miss work, and also transmit the disease to at risk loved ones.
  - nradov 5y ago
    I would encourage everyone to get vaccinated if they can, but vaccinated people can still transmit the disease to others. There is probably some reduction in risk but the magnitude is unclear. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/why-measure-effectiveness/breakthrough-cases.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effective...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- kazoomonger 5y ago
  You cannot seriously be trying to advocate for hospitals being run with unvaccinated staff. > We treated your asthma attack, sorry about the covid that you got while you were here, hope those two things don't affect each other I have to agree with the other commenter that you're either not arguing in good faith, or you're so blindly ideologically driven that you've thrown basic reasoning skills out the window.
- grayhatter 5y ago
  > Fair point. An overrun issue can be mitigated if a) hospitals would not dismiss unvaccinated staff thereby leading them to be understaffed (an unstaffed bed = not a bed, which is one reason why hospitals "don't have enough beds") I don't believe this is actually a problem. I think you're either mistaken or making this up. Got a citation I might believe this is actually causing any meaningful effects? Because if not, I think hospital staff have a duty to do everything in their power, within reason, to not harm their patients, or make pandemics worse. Which is exactly what someone working with covid patents would do, turn one infection and 20 maybes into 22 infections. > US medical staff would accept more of the treatment options available in other countries (Japan, India, etc) such as ivermectin. I'm super hopeful ivermectin is proven to be a useful antiviral. Which it currently isn't. We're in dire need of useful antivirals, and it's only going to get worse. The US has a nasty history of experimenting on it's population, one we're rightfully very careful to make sure we don't repeat. So pretending ivermectin is anything other than uncontrolled experimentation is dishonest at best. There are times when experimental treatments are justified. Hospital capacity ethically speaking isn't one of them. This may be me, but I like my first line treatments to be backed by large sample, peer approved research before they're used. Radical treatments for the critically ill is another topic; but that's not what we're talking about here is it?
  - hammock 5y ago
    > So pretending ivermectin is anything other than uncontrolled experimentation is dishonest at best. Ivermectin treatment for Covid is now supported by 113 studies, 73 of which have been peer reviewed. This includes 63 controlled trials with a total of 26,398 patients, and 31 randomized controlled trials. Here are links to 51 of them. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-021-00430-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-021-00430-5 https://iv.iiarjournals.org/content/34/5/3023.long https://iv.iiarjournals.org/content/34/5/3023.long https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2020.592908/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2020.5929... https://www.futuremedicine.com/doi/10.2217/fvl-2020-0342 https://www.futuremedicine.com/doi/10.2217/fvl-2020-0342 https://doi.org/10.2217/fvl-2020-0342 https://doi.org/10.2217/fvl-2020-0342 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167488911001145 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016748891... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166354219307211?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01663... https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00210-020-01902-5 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00210-020-01902-5 https://doi.org/10.1038/s41429-020-0336-z https://doi.org/10.1038/s41429-020-0336-z https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166354220302011?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016635422... https://ascpt.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cpt.1909 https://ascpt.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cpt.1909 https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-73308/v1 https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-73308/v1 https://doi.org/10.1038%2Fs41579-020-00468-6 https://doi.org/10.1038%2Fs41579-020-00468-6 https://www.pnas.org/content/112/30/9436 https://www.pnas.org/content/112/30/9436 https://doi.org/10.3389%2Ffmicb.2020.592908 https://doi.org/10.3389%2Ffmicb.2020.592908 https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.1093/emboj/16.23.7067 https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.1093/emboj/16.23.7067 https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/222/5/734/5860442 https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/222/5/734/5860442 https://doi.org/10.1038%2Fs41418-020-00633-7 https://doi.org/10.1038%2Fs41418-020-00633-7 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0168170 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... https://www.cell.com/cell-host-microbe/fulltext/S1931-3128(20)30290-0 https://www.cell.com/cell-host-microbe/fulltext/S1931-3128(2... https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00011-008-8007-8 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00011-008-8007-... https://doi.org/10.1038/sigtrans.2017.23 https://doi.org/10.1038/sigtrans.2017.23 https://jeccr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13046-019-1251-7 https://jeccr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13046-019-... https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1443 https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1443 https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa2015432 https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa2015432 https://www.journalofinfection.com/article/S0163-4453(20)30234-6/fulltext https://www.journalofinfection.com/article/S0163-4453(20)302... https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.00827/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.0082... https://science.sciencemag.org/content/369/6504/718 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/369/6504/718 https://ann-clinmicrob.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12941-020-00362-2 https://ann-clinmicrob.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s1... https://pharmrev.aspetjournals.org/content/72/2/486 https://pharmrev.aspetjournals.org/content/72/2/486 https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/JVI.01012-07 https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/JVI.01012-07 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41418-020-00633-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41418-020-00633-7 https://doi.org/10.3390%2Fcancers11101527 https://doi.org/10.3390%2Fcancers11101527 https://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/76/15/4457 https://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/76/15/4457 https://rupress.org/jgp/article/123/3/281/33850/Mechanism-of-Ivermectin-Facilitation-of-Human-P2X4 https://rupress.org/jgp/article/123/3/281/33850/Mechanism-of... https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphar.2017.00291/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphar.2017.0029... https://www.jimmunol.org/content/200/3/1159 https://www.jimmunol.org/content/200/3/1159 https://molmed.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s10020-020-00172-4 https://molmed.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s10020-020... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29511601/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29511601/ https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30293-0/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3... https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1472-8206.2009.00684.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1472-8206... https://doi.org/10.1007%2Fs00011-011-0307-8 https://doi.org/10.1007%2Fs00011-011-0307-8 https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS2352-3964(17)30376-6/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS2352-39... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22417684/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22417684/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7502160/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7502160/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7605516/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7605516/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27302166/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27302166/ https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00210-020-01902-5 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00210-020-01902-5 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6826853/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6826853/ https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3636557 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3636557 https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.15252/emmm.202114122 https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.15252/emmm.202114122

Fair point. An overrun issue can be mitigated if a) hospitals would not dismiss unvaccinated staff thereby leading them to be understaffed (an unstaffed bed = not a bed, which is one reason why hospitals "don't have enough beds"), and b) US medical staff would accept more of the treatment options available in other countries (Japan, India, etc) such as ivermectin.

dbt00 5y ago
Unvaccinated staff get sick and die, and staff members of all sorts of vaccination status can get sick and miss work, and also transmit the disease to at risk loved ones.
- nradov 5y ago
  I would encourage everyone to get vaccinated if they can, but vaccinated people can still transmit the disease to others. There is probably some reduction in risk but the magnitude is unclear. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/why-measure-effectiveness/breakthrough-cases.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effective...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
kazoomonger 5y ago
You cannot seriously be trying to advocate for hospitals being run with unvaccinated staff. > We treated your asthma attack, sorry about the covid that you got while you were here, hope those two things don't affect each other I have to agree with the other commenter that you're either not arguing in good faith, or you're so blindly ideologically driven that you've thrown basic reasoning skills out the window.
grayhatter 5y ago
> Fair point. An overrun issue can be mitigated if a) hospitals would not dismiss unvaccinated staff thereby leading them to be understaffed (an unstaffed bed = not a bed, which is one reason why hospitals "don't have enough beds") I don't believe this is actually a problem. I think you're either mistaken or making this up. Got a citation I might believe this is actually causing any meaningful effects? Because if not, I think hospital staff have a duty to do everything in their power, within reason, to not harm their patients, or make pandemics worse. Which is exactly what someone working with covid patents would do, turn one infection and 20 maybes into 22 infections. > US medical staff would accept more of the treatment options available in other countries (Japan, India, etc) such as ivermectin. I'm super hopeful ivermectin is proven to be a useful antiviral. Which it currently isn't. We're in dire need of useful antivirals, and it's only going to get worse. The US has a nasty history of experimenting on it's population, one we're rightfully very careful to make sure we don't repeat. So pretending ivermectin is anything other than uncontrolled experimentation is dishonest at best. There are times when experimental treatments are justified. Hospital capacity ethically speaking isn't one of them. This may be me, but I like my first line treatments to be backed by large sample, peer approved research before they're used. Radical treatments for the critically ill is another topic; but that's not what we're talking about here is it?
- hammock 5y ago
  > So pretending ivermectin is anything other than uncontrolled experimentation is dishonest at best. Ivermectin treatment for Covid is now supported by 113 studies, 73 of which have been peer reviewed. This includes 63 controlled trials with a total of 26,398 patients, and 31 randomized controlled trials. Here are links to 51 of them. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-021-00430-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-021-00430-5 https://iv.iiarjournals.org/content/34/5/3023.long https://iv.iiarjournals.org/content/34/5/3023.long https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2020.592908/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2020.5929... https://www.futuremedicine.com/doi/10.2217/fvl-2020-0342 https://www.futuremedicine.com/doi/10.2217/fvl-2020-0342 https://doi.org/10.2217/fvl-2020-0342 https://doi.org/10.2217/fvl-2020-0342 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167488911001145 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016748891... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166354219307211?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01663... https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00210-020-01902-5 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00210-020-01902-5 https://doi.org/10.1038/s41429-020-0336-z https://doi.org/10.1038/s41429-020-0336-z https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166354220302011?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016635422... https://ascpt.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cpt.1909 https://ascpt.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cpt.1909 https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-73308/v1 https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-73308/v1 https://doi.org/10.1038%2Fs41579-020-00468-6 https://doi.org/10.1038%2Fs41579-020-00468-6 https://www.pnas.org/content/112/30/9436 https://www.pnas.org/content/112/30/9436 https://doi.org/10.3389%2Ffmicb.2020.592908 https://doi.org/10.3389%2Ffmicb.2020.592908 https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.1093/emboj/16.23.7067 https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.1093/emboj/16.23.7067 https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/222/5/734/5860442 https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/222/5/734/5860442 https://doi.org/10.1038%2Fs41418-020-00633-7 https://doi.org/10.1038%2Fs41418-020-00633-7 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0168170 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... https://www.cell.com/cell-host-microbe/fulltext/S1931-3128(20)30290-0 https://www.cell.com/cell-host-microbe/fulltext/S1931-3128(2... https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00011-008-8007-8 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00011-008-8007-... https://doi.org/10.1038/sigtrans.2017.23 https://doi.org/10.1038/sigtrans.2017.23 https://jeccr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13046-019-1251-7 https://jeccr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13046-019-... https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1443 https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1443 https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa2015432 https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa2015432 https://www.journalofinfection.com/article/S0163-4453(20)30234-6/fulltext https://www.journalofinfection.com/article/S0163-4453(20)302... https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.00827/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.0082... https://science.sciencemag.org/content/369/6504/718 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/369/6504/718 https://ann-clinmicrob.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12941-020-00362-2 https://ann-clinmicrob.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s1... https://pharmrev.aspetjournals.org/content/72/2/486 https://pharmrev.aspetjournals.org/content/72/2/486 https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/JVI.01012-07 https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/JVI.01012-07 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41418-020-00633-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41418-020-00633-7 https://doi.org/10.3390%2Fcancers11101527 https://doi.org/10.3390%2Fcancers11101527 https://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/76/15/4457 https://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/76/15/4457 https://rupress.org/jgp/article/123/3/281/33850/Mechanism-of-Ivermectin-Facilitation-of-Human-P2X4 https://rupress.org/jgp/article/123/3/281/33850/Mechanism-of... https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphar.2017.00291/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphar.2017.0029... https://www.jimmunol.org/content/200/3/1159 https://www.jimmunol.org/content/200/3/1159 https://molmed.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s10020-020-00172-4 https://molmed.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s10020-020... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29511601/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29511601/ https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30293-0/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3... https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1472-8206.2009.00684.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1472-8206... https://doi.org/10.1007%2Fs00011-011-0307-8 https://doi.org/10.1007%2Fs00011-011-0307-8 https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS2352-3964(17)30376-6/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS2352-39... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22417684/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22417684/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7502160/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7502160/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7605516/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7605516/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27302166/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27302166/ https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00210-020-01902-5 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00210-020-01902-5 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6826853/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6826853/ https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3636557 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3636557 https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.15252/emmm.202114122 https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.15252/emmm.202114122