7 ms·

I'm not surprised. When your unvaccinated loved ones die or get sick because large portions of the population are choosing to not get vaccinated, it becomes a

by r00fus 5y ago

I'm not surprised. When your unvaccinated loved ones die or get sick because large portions of the population are choosing to not get vaccinated, it becomes a visceral response. Vax hesitancy has a social cost. This is part of the price to pay. That it's not "totally efficient" is debatable.

hammock 5y ago
>Vax hesitancy has a social cost What is the social cost, if there is evidence that this vaccine doesn't prevent infection and/or transmission?
- notriddle 5y ago
  If.
- Izikiel43 5y ago
  Hospitals not overrun?
  - hammock 5y ago
    Fair point. An overrun issue can be mitigated if a) hospitals would not dismiss unvaccinated staff thereby leading them to be understaffed (an unstaffed bed = not a bed, which is one reason why hospitals "don't have enough beds"), and b) US medical staff would accept more of the treatment options available in other countries (Japan, India, etc) such as ivermectin.
    - dbt00 5y ago
      Unvaccinated staff get sick and die, and staff members of all sorts of vaccination status can get sick and miss work, and also transmit the disease to at risk loved ones.
      - nradov 5y ago
        I would encourage everyone to get vaccinated if they can, but vaccinated people can still transmit the disease to others. There is probably some reduction in risk but the magnitude is unclear. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/why-measure-effectiveness/breakthrough-cases.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effective...
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - kazoomonger 5y ago
      You cannot seriously be trying to advocate for hospitals being run with unvaccinated staff. > We treated your asthma attack, sorry about the covid that you got while you were here, hope those two things don't affect each other I have to agree with the other commenter that you're either not arguing in good faith, or you're so blindly ideologically driven that you've thrown basic reasoning skills out the window.
    - grayhatter 5y ago
      > Fair point. An overrun issue can be mitigated if a) hospitals would not dismiss unvaccinated staff thereby leading them to be understaffed (an unstaffed bed = not a bed, which is one reason why hospitals "don't have enough beds") I don't believe this is actually a problem. I think you're either mistaken or making this up. Got a citation I might believe this is actually causing any meaningful effects? Because if not, I think hospital staff have a duty to do everything in their power, within reason, to not harm their patients, or make pandemics worse. Which is exactly what someone working with covid patents would do, turn one infection and 20 maybes into 22 infections. > US medical staff would accept more of the treatment options available in other countries (Japan, India, etc) such as ivermectin. I'm super hopeful ivermectin is proven to be a useful antiviral. Which it currently isn't. We're in dire need of useful antivirals, and it's only going to get worse. The US has a nasty history of experimenting on it's population, one we're rightfully very careful to make sure we don't repeat. So pretending ivermectin is anything other than uncontrolled experimentation is dishonest at best. There are times when experimental treatments are justified. Hospital capacity ethically speaking isn't one of them. This may be me, but I like my first line treatments to be backed by large sample, peer approved research before they're used. Radical treatments for the critically ill is another topic; but that's not what we're talking about here is it?
      - hammock 5y ago
        > So pretending ivermectin is anything other than uncontrolled experimentation is dishonest at best. Ivermectin treatment for Covid is now supported by 113 studies, 73 of which have been peer reviewed. This includes 63 controlled trials with a total of 26,398 patients, and 31 randomized controlled trials. Here are links to 51 of them. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-021-00430-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-021-00430-5 https://iv.iiarjournals.org/content/34/5/3023.long https://iv.iiarjournals.org/content/34/5/3023.long https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2020.592908/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2020.5929... https://www.futuremedicine.com/doi/10.2217/fvl-2020-0342 https://www.futuremedicine.com/doi/10.2217/fvl-2020-0342 https://doi.org/10.2217/fvl-2020-0342 https://doi.org/10.2217/fvl-2020-0342 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167488911001145 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016748891... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166354219307211?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01663... https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00210-020-01902-5 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00210-020-01902-5 https://doi.org/10.1038/s41429-020-0336-z https://doi.org/10.1038/s41429-020-0336-z https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166354220302011?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016635422... https://ascpt.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cpt.1909 https://ascpt.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cpt.1909 https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-73308/v1 https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-73308/v1 https://doi.org/10.1038%2Fs41579-020-00468-6 https://doi.org/10.1038%2Fs41579-020-00468-6 https://www.pnas.org/content/112/30/9436 https://www.pnas.org/content/112/30/9436 https://doi.org/10.3389%2Ffmicb.2020.592908 https://doi.org/10.3389%2Ffmicb.2020.592908 https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.1093/emboj/16.23.7067 https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.1093/emboj/16.23.7067 https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/222/5/734/5860442 https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/222/5/734/5860442 https://doi.org/10.1038%2Fs41418-020-00633-7 https://doi.org/10.1038%2Fs41418-020-00633-7 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0168170 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... https://www.cell.com/cell-host-microbe/fulltext/S1931-3128(20)30290-0 https://www.cell.com/cell-host-microbe/fulltext/S1931-3128(2... https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00011-008-8007-8 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00011-008-8007-... https://doi.org/10.1038/sigtrans.2017.23 https://doi.org/10.1038/sigtrans.2017.23 https://jeccr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13046-019-1251-7 https://jeccr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13046-019-... https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1443 https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1443 https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa2015432 https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa2015432 https://www.journalofinfection.com/article/S0163-4453(20)30234-6/fulltext https://www.journalofinfection.com/article/S0163-4453(20)302... https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.00827/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.0082... https://science.sciencemag.org/content/369/6504/718 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/369/6504/718 https://ann-clinmicrob.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12941-020-00362-2 https://ann-clinmicrob.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s1... https://pharmrev.aspetjournals.org/content/72/2/486 https://pharmrev.aspetjournals.org/content/72/2/486 https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/JVI.01012-07 https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/JVI.01012-07 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41418-020-00633-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41418-020-00633-7 https://doi.org/10.3390%2Fcancers11101527 https://doi.org/10.3390%2Fcancers11101527 https://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/76/15/4457 https://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/76/15/4457 https://rupress.org/jgp/article/123/3/281/33850/Mechanism-of-Ivermectin-Facilitation-of-Human-P2X4 https://rupress.org/jgp/article/123/3/281/33850/Mechanism-of... https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphar.2017.00291/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphar.2017.0029... https://www.jimmunol.org/content/200/3/1159 https://www.jimmunol.org/content/200/3/1159 https://molmed.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s10020-020-00172-4 https://molmed.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s10020-020... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29511601/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29511601/ https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30293-0/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3... https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1472-8206.2009.00684.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1472-8206... https://doi.org/10.1007%2Fs00011-011-0307-8 https://doi.org/10.1007%2Fs00011-011-0307-8 https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS2352-3964(17)30376-6/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS2352-39... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22417684/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22417684/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7502160/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7502160/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7605516/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7605516/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27302166/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27302166/ https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00210-020-01902-5 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00210-020-01902-5 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6826853/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6826853/ https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3636557 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3636557 https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.15252/emmm.202114122 https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.15252/emmm.202114122
- seattle_spring 5y ago
  Hospitals disproportionately full of unvaccinated patients, resulting in other emergency cases being turned away. I don't know why I'm responding though, your other comments show that you're not participating here in good faith.
- grayhatter 5y ago
  zero. there is no social cost to the vaccine if it has no effect. there is a social cost to any vaccine that has only negative effects. The vaccine we're currently talking about has very limited negative effects but incredibly beneficial positive effects. so the social cost to the vaccine we're talking about is not getting it causes more harm than getting it.
  - TrevorJ 5y ago
    I'm pretty pro covid vaccine. But I don't think your thesis is correct. VAERS tells a very different story. Even if the signal is overstated by an order of magnitude, it's still an incredibly important signal. The CDC is also concerned enough to have ordered Pfizer to undertake a multi year study as well. We don't do any favors in terms of convincing people to get vaccinated by pretending or minimizing the potential risks. People see through this kind of dishonest behavior.
    - grayhatter 5y ago
      it's not minimizing risks. I work in computer security you don't have to fear a three letter agency. I am about a certain of that as I am you don't have to fear the vaccine. could there be a three letter agency after you absolutely could you experience negative effects from the vaccine absolutely, with the information I do have I can assert easily they're about as likely (many restrictions apply). It's not reasonable for my mom to know about or be able to understand the risks of ransomware. Citing VARES without about at years worth of biomedical knowledge is, would be up there with her saying, but ransomware has hidden from this antivirus software before. While technically true, it's not a reason to not use antivirus, or to not trust that antivirus. Anyone who does security research would say the same thing... just like anyone who immunology research is saying about all the Cov19 vaccines.
      - TrevorJ 5y ago
        So your thesis is: "you should trust the experts because you likely aren't smart enough to read a bar chart on your own." ?
- macksd 5y ago
  There is evidence that the vaccine significantly (and not just "statistical significance" - I mean really significantly) reduces the risk of severe infection. Many hospitals (including the 3 closest to me, in a state with 70% vaccination) are completely overrun by patients that are predominantly unvaccinated.
- dbt00 5y ago
  It definitely reduces infection risk and transmission risk substantially, even against Delta, and still mostly eliminates hospitalization (which puts health care workers and people who need urgent medical care at risk) and death.
  - nradov 5y ago
    We don't have solid data on whether vaccination substantially reduces transmission risk. It's possible but remains unproven. The vaccines are still very effective at preventing deaths. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1
nradov 5y ago
I encourage everyone to get vaccinated if they can, but the Delta variant is so contagious that there will be no significant herd immunity effect to protect your unvaccinated loved ones. Everyone can expect to get exposed. https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immunity-not-possible-astrazeneca-developer-2021-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immu...

by r00fus 5y ago

hammock 5y ago

>Vax hesitancy has a social cost What is the social cost, if there is evidence that this vaccine doesn't prevent infection and/or transmission?

notriddle 5y ago
If.
Izikiel43 5y ago
Hospitals not overrun?
- hammock 5y ago
  Fair point. An overrun issue can be mitigated if a) hospitals would not dismiss unvaccinated staff thereby leading them to be understaffed (an unstaffed bed = not a bed, which is one reason why hospitals "don't have enough beds"), and b) US medical staff would accept more of the treatment options available in other countries (Japan, India, etc) such as ivermectin.
  - dbt00 5y ago
    Unvaccinated staff get sick and die, and staff members of all sorts of vaccination status can get sick and miss work, and also transmit the disease to at risk loved ones.
    - nradov 5y ago
      I would encourage everyone to get vaccinated if they can, but vaccinated people can still transmit the disease to others. There is probably some reduction in risk but the magnitude is unclear. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/why-measure-effectiveness/breakthrough-cases.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effective...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - kazoomonger 5y ago
    You cannot seriously be trying to advocate for hospitals being run with unvaccinated staff. > We treated your asthma attack, sorry about the covid that you got while you were here, hope those two things don't affect each other I have to agree with the other commenter that you're either not arguing in good faith, or you're so blindly ideologically driven that you've thrown basic reasoning skills out the window.
  - grayhatter 5y ago
    > Fair point. An overrun issue can be mitigated if a) hospitals would not dismiss unvaccinated staff thereby leading them to be understaffed (an unstaffed bed = not a bed, which is one reason why hospitals "don't have enough beds") I don't believe this is actually a problem. I think you're either mistaken or making this up. Got a citation I might believe this is actually causing any meaningful effects? Because if not, I think hospital staff have a duty to do everything in their power, within reason, to not harm their patients, or make pandemics worse. Which is exactly what someone working with covid patents would do, turn one infection and 20 maybes into 22 infections. > US medical staff would accept more of the treatment options available in other countries (Japan, India, etc) such as ivermectin. I'm super hopeful ivermectin is proven to be a useful antiviral. Which it currently isn't. We're in dire need of useful antivirals, and it's only going to get worse. The US has a nasty history of experimenting on it's population, one we're rightfully very careful to make sure we don't repeat. So pretending ivermectin is anything other than uncontrolled experimentation is dishonest at best. There are times when experimental treatments are justified. Hospital capacity ethically speaking isn't one of them. This may be me, but I like my first line treatments to be backed by large sample, peer approved research before they're used. Radical treatments for the critically ill is another topic; but that's not what we're talking about here is it?
    - hammock 5y ago
      > So pretending ivermectin is anything other than uncontrolled experimentation is dishonest at best. Ivermectin treatment for Covid is now supported by 113 studies, 73 of which have been peer reviewed. This includes 63 controlled trials with a total of 26,398 patients, and 31 randomized controlled trials. Here are links to 51 of them. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-021-00430-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-021-00430-5 https://iv.iiarjournals.org/content/34/5/3023.long https://iv.iiarjournals.org/content/34/5/3023.long https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2020.592908/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2020.5929... https://www.futuremedicine.com/doi/10.2217/fvl-2020-0342 https://www.futuremedicine.com/doi/10.2217/fvl-2020-0342 https://doi.org/10.2217/fvl-2020-0342 https://doi.org/10.2217/fvl-2020-0342 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167488911001145 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016748891... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0166354219307211?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01663... https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00210-020-01902-5 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00210-020-01902-5 https://doi.org/10.1038/s41429-020-0336-z https://doi.org/10.1038/s41429-020-0336-z https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166354220302011?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016635422... https://ascpt.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cpt.1909 https://ascpt.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cpt.1909 https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-73308/v1 https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-73308/v1 https://doi.org/10.1038%2Fs41579-020-00468-6 https://doi.org/10.1038%2Fs41579-020-00468-6 https://www.pnas.org/content/112/30/9436 https://www.pnas.org/content/112/30/9436 https://doi.org/10.3389%2Ffmicb.2020.592908 https://doi.org/10.3389%2Ffmicb.2020.592908 https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.1093/emboj/16.23.7067 https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.1093/emboj/16.23.7067 https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/222/5/734/5860442 https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/222/5/734/5860442 https://doi.org/10.1038%2Fs41418-020-00633-7 https://doi.org/10.1038%2Fs41418-020-00633-7 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0168170 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... https://www.cell.com/cell-host-microbe/fulltext/S1931-3128(20)30290-0 https://www.cell.com/cell-host-microbe/fulltext/S1931-3128(2... https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00011-008-8007-8 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00011-008-8007-... https://doi.org/10.1038/sigtrans.2017.23 https://doi.org/10.1038/sigtrans.2017.23 https://jeccr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13046-019-1251-7 https://jeccr.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13046-019-... https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1443 https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1443 https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa2015432 https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa2015432 https://www.journalofinfection.com/article/S0163-4453(20)30234-6/fulltext https://www.journalofinfection.com/article/S0163-4453(20)302... https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.00827/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.0082... https://science.sciencemag.org/content/369/6504/718 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/369/6504/718 https://ann-clinmicrob.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12941-020-00362-2 https://ann-clinmicrob.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s1... https://pharmrev.aspetjournals.org/content/72/2/486 https://pharmrev.aspetjournals.org/content/72/2/486 https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/JVI.01012-07 https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/JVI.01012-07 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41418-020-00633-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41418-020-00633-7 https://doi.org/10.3390%2Fcancers11101527 https://doi.org/10.3390%2Fcancers11101527 https://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/76/15/4457 https://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/76/15/4457 https://rupress.org/jgp/article/123/3/281/33850/Mechanism-of-Ivermectin-Facilitation-of-Human-P2X4 https://rupress.org/jgp/article/123/3/281/33850/Mechanism-of... https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphar.2017.00291/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphar.2017.0029... https://www.jimmunol.org/content/200/3/1159 https://www.jimmunol.org/content/200/3/1159 https://molmed.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s10020-020-00172-4 https://molmed.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s10020-020... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29511601/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29511601/ https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30293-0/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3... https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1472-8206.2009.00684.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1472-8206... https://doi.org/10.1007%2Fs00011-011-0307-8 https://doi.org/10.1007%2Fs00011-011-0307-8 https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS2352-3964(17)30376-6/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS2352-39... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22417684/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22417684/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7502160/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7502160/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7605516/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7605516/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27302166/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27302166/ https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00210-020-01902-5 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00210-020-01902-5 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6826853/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6826853/ https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3636557 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3636557 https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.15252/emmm.202114122 https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.15252/emmm.202114122
seattle_spring 5y ago
Hospitals disproportionately full of unvaccinated patients, resulting in other emergency cases being turned away. I don't know why I'm responding though, your other comments show that you're not participating here in good faith.
grayhatter 5y ago
zero. there is no social cost to the vaccine if it has no effect. there is a social cost to any vaccine that has only negative effects. The vaccine we're currently talking about has very limited negative effects but incredibly beneficial positive effects. so the social cost to the vaccine we're talking about is not getting it causes more harm than getting it.
- TrevorJ 5y ago
  I'm pretty pro covid vaccine. But I don't think your thesis is correct. VAERS tells a very different story. Even if the signal is overstated by an order of magnitude, it's still an incredibly important signal. The CDC is also concerned enough to have ordered Pfizer to undertake a multi year study as well. We don't do any favors in terms of convincing people to get vaccinated by pretending or minimizing the potential risks. People see through this kind of dishonest behavior.
  - grayhatter 5y ago
    it's not minimizing risks. I work in computer security you don't have to fear a three letter agency. I am about a certain of that as I am you don't have to fear the vaccine. could there be a three letter agency after you absolutely could you experience negative effects from the vaccine absolutely, with the information I do have I can assert easily they're about as likely (many restrictions apply). It's not reasonable for my mom to know about or be able to understand the risks of ransomware. Citing VARES without about at years worth of biomedical knowledge is, would be up there with her saying, but ransomware has hidden from this antivirus software before. While technically true, it's not a reason to not use antivirus, or to not trust that antivirus. Anyone who does security research would say the same thing... just like anyone who immunology research is saying about all the Cov19 vaccines.
    - TrevorJ 5y ago
      So your thesis is: "you should trust the experts because you likely aren't smart enough to read a bar chart on your own." ?
macksd 5y ago
There is evidence that the vaccine significantly (and not just "statistical significance" - I mean really significantly) reduces the risk of severe infection. Many hospitals (including the 3 closest to me, in a state with 70% vaccination) are completely overrun by patients that are predominantly unvaccinated.
dbt00 5y ago
It definitely reduces infection risk and transmission risk substantially, even against Delta, and still mostly eliminates hospitalization (which puts health care workers and people who need urgent medical care at risk) and death.
- nradov 5y ago
  We don't have solid data on whether vaccination substantially reduces transmission risk. It's possible but remains unproven. The vaccines are still very effective at preventing deaths. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1

nradov 5y ago

I encourage everyone to get vaccinated if they can, but the Delta variant is so contagious that there will be no significant herd immunity effect to protect your unvaccinated loved ones. Everyone can expect to get exposed. https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immunity-not-possible-astrazeneca-developer-2021-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immu...