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Any sort of compassion I have for those who are nervous about getting injected with medicine they don't understand is overwhelmed by disgust at the lying and ma

Any sort of compassion I have for those who are nervous about getting injected with medicine they don't understand is overwhelmed by disgust at the lying and magical thinking that surrounds that. Vaccines are not perfect. They are not guaranteed 100% safe. But they're the best thing we've got for dealing with epidemics.

warning26 5y ago
Absolutely; I suspect it all comes back to cognitive dissonance. "I am a smart and reasonable person" + "I'm afraid to get injected with a needle" metamorphoses into "clearly, my fear of getting injected is because I am so much smarter than everyone else", leading them to latch onto conspiracy theories as a coping mechanism to make them not only feel in control, but also make them feel like they're smarter than the average bear.
pattrn 5y ago
The most common concern I hear among younger people is that they are worried that the vaccine may cause infertility. After the infertility issue with the HPV vaccine, which took many years to figure out, their trust in new vaccines has decreased substantially. Would you describe that line of reasoning as "lying" or as "magical thinking"? Edit: My apologies for repeating what I've been hearing for the past few months from a small group of friends. I haven't done the research into HPV vaccines, so it turns out that it may fall into the category of "magical thinking".
- rejectedandsad 5y ago
  Absolutely I would because infertility is completely unrelated to the operational mechanism of the vaccine
- rsynnott 5y ago
  > After the infertility issue with the HPV vaccine, which took many years to figure out ... Wait, which issue? There is no such issue recognized by mainstream medical authorities.
  - plorkyeran 5y ago
    It was FUD spread by people opposed to the vaccine because they did not approve of anything which could make sex safer. A large number of studies were performed on the topic as a result and it turned out to not be a thing.
  - giantrobot 5y ago
    I had a nice long reply to the parent but their post got flagged before I finished it. But there's no meaningful link between the HPV vaccines and infertility as best as any study could find. Here's the WHO's view [0] (emphasis mine): > The details of the studies were reported to the Committee, which reviewed the evidence in the 9 articles (case reports, passive surveillance and epidemiological studies) and concluded that, although the safety of HPV vaccine has received considerable media attention, the evidence does not suggest a causal relationship between HPV vaccination and infertility. [0] https://www.who.int/groups/global-advisory-committee-on-vaccine-safety/topics/human-papillomavirus-vaccines/infertility https://www.who.int/groups/global-advisory-committee-on-vacc...
    - dehrmann 5y ago
      There was a retracted study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29889622/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29889622/
- learc83 5y ago
  The study that launched the “HPV vaccine caused infertility” fear (much like the study that linked vaccines to autism) was retracted. Since then multiple studies have shown no increase in infertility.
  - pattrn 5y ago
    I wasn't aware of that, as I've only ever heard it mentioned in conversation. I'll look into it and bring it up the next time it inevitably comes up in conversation. I'm so exhausted talking about this stuff all the time due to the rehashing, so it will be nice to have something new to add.
    - mthoms 5y ago
      This is the problem. Repeating things you heard somewhere without first verifying them. Now is the time to ask yourself - what other things have I been repeating that I haven’t verified? I will say I appreciate your willingness to admit the mistake though. It’s refreshing.
      - pattrn 5y ago
        For sure. I'm interested in the truth, not in winning an argument. Recent times have resulted in a bombardment of information from an overwhelming number of sources, so I find my standards slipping here and there due to not having the time to verify everything. But that's fine. My theory is that adults learn slower than children in part due to fear of being wrong, and I have no interest in learning slowly. And here we are: I've learned something, and you're feeling refreshed ;). Not a bad outcome.
whilestanding 5y ago
Some people just trust their natural immune system. It's the best thing humans have had for dealing with any sort of sickness since the beginning of time. They've seen the risk and they are willing bet on a natural immune response. Its that simple. It's the pro vaccine people that push the issue and have an agenda.
- WA 5y ago
  Naturalistic fallacy plus survivorship bias. Edit: > It's the pro vaccine people that push the issue and have an agenda. Yes, that agenda is: keep the healthcare system running for other issues like accidents. What anti-vaxxers don’t do: waive their right to get COVID treatment if their immune system doesn’t work as expected.
  - joelbondurant 5y ago
    Similarly I'd like companies to ban fat obese disgusting losers from the office permanently.
  - tinus_hn 5y ago
    Next up, smokers and the obese.
- rejectedandsad 5y ago
  The natural immune response is what vaccines bolster by design….
- mehphp 5y ago
  This strikes me as pretty much the reverse of reality. > Some people just trust their natural immune system. It's the best thing humans have had for dealing with any sort of sickness since the beginning of time. You don't think modern medicine is an improvement over our natural immune system? > They've seen the risk and they are willing bet on a natural immune response. Have they though? They deny it's a big deal at all and that the numbers are inflated. > It's the pro vaccine people that push the issue and have an agenda. Because they unequivocally/empirically work.
TrevorJ 5y ago
>Vaccines are not perfect. They are not guaranteed 100% safe. But they're the best thing we've got for dealing with epidemics. Curious if you would consider Pfizer's pill intervention for prophylaxis if it becomes available?
- pstuart 5y ago
  Once I see data that provides a level of comfort, yes. I'm looking forward to a booster that works as a nasal spray for better targeting.

warning26 5y ago

Absolutely; I suspect it all comes back to cognitive dissonance. "I am a smart and reasonable person" + "I'm afraid to get injected with a needle" metamorphoses into "clearly, my fear of getting injected is because I am so much smarter than everyone else", leading them to latch onto conspiracy theories as a coping mechanism to make them not only feel in control, but also make them feel like they're smarter than the average bear.

pattrn 5y ago

The most common concern I hear among younger people is that they are worried that the vaccine may cause infertility. After the infertility issue with the HPV vaccine, which took many years to figure out, their trust in new vaccines has decreased substantially. Would you describe that line of reasoning as "lying" or as "magical thinking"? Edit: My apologies for repeating what I've been hearing for the past few months from a small group of friends. I haven't done the research into HPV vaccines, so it turns out that it may fall into the category of "magical thinking".

rejectedandsad 5y ago
Absolutely I would because infertility is completely unrelated to the operational mechanism of the vaccine
rsynnott 5y ago
> After the infertility issue with the HPV vaccine, which took many years to figure out ... Wait, which issue? There is no such issue recognized by mainstream medical authorities.
- plorkyeran 5y ago
  It was FUD spread by people opposed to the vaccine because they did not approve of anything which could make sex safer. A large number of studies were performed on the topic as a result and it turned out to not be a thing.
- giantrobot 5y ago
  I had a nice long reply to the parent but their post got flagged before I finished it. But there's no meaningful link between the HPV vaccines and infertility as best as any study could find. Here's the WHO's view [0] (emphasis mine): > The details of the studies were reported to the Committee, which reviewed the evidence in the 9 articles (case reports, passive surveillance and epidemiological studies) and concluded that, although the safety of HPV vaccine has received considerable media attention, the evidence does not suggest a causal relationship between HPV vaccination and infertility. [0] https://www.who.int/groups/global-advisory-committee-on-vaccine-safety/topics/human-papillomavirus-vaccines/infertility https://www.who.int/groups/global-advisory-committee-on-vacc...
  - dehrmann 5y ago
    There was a retracted study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29889622/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29889622/
learc83 5y ago
The study that launched the “HPV vaccine caused infertility” fear (much like the study that linked vaccines to autism) was retracted. Since then multiple studies have shown no increase in infertility.
- pattrn 5y ago
  I wasn't aware of that, as I've only ever heard it mentioned in conversation. I'll look into it and bring it up the next time it inevitably comes up in conversation. I'm so exhausted talking about this stuff all the time due to the rehashing, so it will be nice to have something new to add.
  - mthoms 5y ago
    This is the problem. Repeating things you heard somewhere without first verifying them. Now is the time to ask yourself - what other things have I been repeating that I haven’t verified? I will say I appreciate your willingness to admit the mistake though. It’s refreshing.
    - pattrn 5y ago
      For sure. I'm interested in the truth, not in winning an argument. Recent times have resulted in a bombardment of information from an overwhelming number of sources, so I find my standards slipping here and there due to not having the time to verify everything. But that's fine. My theory is that adults learn slower than children in part due to fear of being wrong, and I have no interest in learning slowly. And here we are: I've learned something, and you're feeling refreshed ;). Not a bad outcome.

whilestanding 5y ago

Some people just trust their natural immune system. It's the best thing humans have had for dealing with any sort of sickness since the beginning of time. They've seen the risk and they are willing bet on a natural immune response. Its that simple. It's the pro vaccine people that push the issue and have an agenda.

WA 5y ago
Naturalistic fallacy plus survivorship bias. Edit: > It's the pro vaccine people that push the issue and have an agenda. Yes, that agenda is: keep the healthcare system running for other issues like accidents. What anti-vaxxers don’t do: waive their right to get COVID treatment if their immune system doesn’t work as expected.
- joelbondurant 5y ago
  Similarly I'd like companies to ban fat obese disgusting losers from the office permanently.
- tinus_hn 5y ago
  Next up, smokers and the obese.
rejectedandsad 5y ago
The natural immune response is what vaccines bolster by design….
mehphp 5y ago
This strikes me as pretty much the reverse of reality. > Some people just trust their natural immune system. It's the best thing humans have had for dealing with any sort of sickness since the beginning of time. You don't think modern medicine is an improvement over our natural immune system? > They've seen the risk and they are willing bet on a natural immune response. Have they though? They deny it's a big deal at all and that the numbers are inflated. > It's the pro vaccine people that push the issue and have an agenda. Because they unequivocally/empirically work.

TrevorJ 5y ago

>Vaccines are not perfect. They are not guaranteed 100% safe. But they're the best thing we've got for dealing with epidemics. Curious if you would consider Pfizer's pill intervention for prophylaxis if it becomes available?

pstuart 5y ago
Once I see data that provides a level of comfort, yes. I'm looking forward to a booster that works as a nasal spray for better targeting.