3 ms·

I'm not sure what you mean by whether consciousness "really exists". Clearly you have a subjective experience... How is that not consciousness? Or are you say

I'm not sure what you mean by whether consciousness "really exists". Clearly you have a subjective experience... How is that not consciousness? Or are you saying that consciousness is an emergent property of matter arranged in certain ways (i.e. your brain) and has no existence separate from that? Completely agree free will is a separate argument, and that it doesn't exist.

dekhn 5y ago
"clearly" I have subjective experience? prove it. consciousness is an emergent property of matter arranged in certain ways.
- goatlover 5y ago
  That's like proving to a solipsist that other minds exist. You know that you have subjective experiences by virtue of having them yourself. And you even admit consciousness is something by saying that it emerges.
- MattPalmer1086 5y ago
  Good point. I can't prove it, I am assuming you have it given I have it. I agree consciousness is an emergent property of matter, although I didn't always think that way. Panpsychism appears attractive at first glance (it makes it fundamental, and that is after all our lived experience). But that only seems to move the problem of what it actually is somewhere else, to some mysterious "mind stuff".
  - goatlover 5y ago
    > But that only seems to move the problem of what it actually is somewhere else, to some mysterious "mind stuff". That's true, but a rejoinder would be that anything fundamental is going to be mysterious. Why do fields, particles or quantum mechanics exist? Consciousness might be an emergent property from matter, but it's difficult to give a reductive account of that. The alternative is strong emergentism, which is just as mysterious as panpsychism. Why would something entirely new not logically entailed by the prior physics emerge at some point in the universe's history?
    - MattPalmer1086 5y ago
      Great point, it could indeed be fundamental and entirely mysterious. But before we've established that I think it's more interesting to go looking for other explanations.

dekhn 5y ago

"clearly" I have subjective experience? prove it. consciousness is an emergent property of matter arranged in certain ways.

goatlover 5y ago
That's like proving to a solipsist that other minds exist. You know that you have subjective experiences by virtue of having them yourself. And you even admit consciousness is something by saying that it emerges.
MattPalmer1086 5y ago
Good point. I can't prove it, I am assuming you have it given I have it. I agree consciousness is an emergent property of matter, although I didn't always think that way. Panpsychism appears attractive at first glance (it makes it fundamental, and that is after all our lived experience). But that only seems to move the problem of what it actually is somewhere else, to some mysterious "mind stuff".
- goatlover 5y ago
  > But that only seems to move the problem of what it actually is somewhere else, to some mysterious "mind stuff". That's true, but a rejoinder would be that anything fundamental is going to be mysterious. Why do fields, particles or quantum mechanics exist? Consciousness might be an emergent property from matter, but it's difficult to give a reductive account of that. The alternative is strong emergentism, which is just as mysterious as panpsychism. Why would something entirely new not logically entailed by the prior physics emerge at some point in the universe's history?
  - MattPalmer1086 5y ago
    Great point, it could indeed be fundamental and entirely mysterious. But before we've established that I think it's more interesting to go looking for other explanations.