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Oh, hi all! I didn't my project to show up here today! This was just my private notes-to-self I'm using to organize a group to create this thing. These notes h

Oh, hi all! I didn't my project to show up here today! This was just my private notes-to-self I'm using to organize a group to create this thing. These notes haven't been cleaned up to be public yet (near the end it gets particularly messy and the memory map has changed from the state shown on this page), but oh well, it's been found! I will answer any questions you may have. And if you want to help make this, my email address is in my profile. Programmers, electrical engineers, testers, documentation... whatever skills you have, I'm sure you can help!

pietervdvn 5y ago
There is also this project, might be interesting to get in touch: https://hackaday.io/project/179890-india-navi https://hackaday.io/project/179890-india-navi
- torgoguys 5y ago
  For sure! Thank you for the pointer to it.
the_biot 5y ago
I realize this might simply put me into the "not target demographic" group, but what makes this so useful as a terminal, that a laptop won't do? I could understand the no-distraction writing i.e. word processor use-case that some people think E-Ink would be good for, but that doesn't appear in your list of possible applications either.
- torgoguys 5y ago
  Use as a distraction-free word processor is listed as a use-case if you read far enough. (As mentioned, the notes are a bit of a mess and weren't cleaned up for public consumption.) But, yes, a laptop can do pretty much everything Paperterm can do. A laptop can do everything a Kindle can do. A laptop can do a huge percent of what your phone can do. If the advantages of this niche device (e.g., sunlight-readable display with no backlight/blue-light, it's insane battery life, a no-compromise keyboard, and it's always-ready-"never-off" state) doesn't appeal to you, then you're right, you're probably just not in the target demographic. Those in the target market find a lot to love in such specs. This is explicitly a niche product, not trying to be everything for everyone (which is closer to what a laptop does). EDIT: if you have a look at the (also not ready for announcement) root of the domain, you'll see a brief pitch: http://www.paperterm.org/ http://www.paperterm.org/ This page also has notes-to-self in brackets, and I'm not in a spot where I can fix it right now, so ignore that.
  - bee_rider 5y ago
    A distraction free word processor that could display PDFs along with the text (for writing LaTeX) would be a real godsend for me. In fact I am writing this very comment while distracting myself from some LaTex I am supposed to be writing...
    - GoOnThenDoTell 5y ago
      You could probably do that with a cheap laptop by cutting down a Linux distro then removing/breaking all network hardware antennas/ports
  - BrowncoatShadow 5y ago
    I would be pretty close to the exact target for this product. The killer feature that would put it over the edge for me would be the possible "crashcart" KVM feature mentioned later in the notes. Lugging around a full KVM console is overkill (unless it is literally on a cart and you only need it at one location). And USB crash cart adapters are buggy, overpriced, and unmaintained. With serial, SSH, and KVM this will fill the perfect "there is a piece of hardware on the rack I need to interface with" role.
- Aeolun 5y ago
  I think this would be great for the same reason that using a Remarkable tablet is great. Exactly because it is limited in it’s application.
_ph_ 5y ago
Sounds like a very interesting project, I certainly would be tempted to have an eInk terminal. Can you post images on how the terminal looks on the eInk screens?
- torgoguys 5y ago
  I can give you images of how a terminal looks on e-ink screens but not with the final panel we're likely to use nor with final software, so probably best no to since it wouldn't be representative. Google can give you an idea of how it looks, but with a much smaller screen than we're using (ours is 13.3") so these images feel more cramped and look more "plain jane": https://www.google.com/search?q=e-ink+terminal&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=e-ink+terminal&um=1&ie=UTF-8... With the larger screen and more refined setup than these Google Images pictures show, it is very pleasant to use. I hands-down prefer it to a laptop running a terminal, except when color is important.
wanderingjew 5y ago
I built something similar: https://bbenchoff.github.io/pages/dumb.html https://bbenchoff.github.io/pages/dumb.html What are you going to do about the actual cost of the device? You've already got an e-paper display, but you're also adding a 'laptop' style enclosure, real keyboard, and if you're storing SSH keys, you're really close to running a cut-down Linux system. That's basically a laptop, and you could get the same thing with, you know, a laptop. Have you thought about scaling down the display, keyboard, and enclosure to something palm-top sized?
- torgoguys 5y ago
  That is very cool! Have you built a physical copy of it? No, I think the smaller size is probably a non-starter for the intended audience. This is meant to be a tool that a lot of these folks are using for hours and hours a day so overall typing and reading experience is paramount, and meant to be a "selling" point. Cost-wise, yes--we're still grappling with costs of the e-ink screen. It's the by far the largest expense in the unit. We've got a good lead that I unfortunately can't talk about at the moment (under NDA). A cut-down Linux really is overkill for this, and isn't capable of making some of the other specs happen (battery life, availability), at least as far as we've been able to determine. Custom code is unfortunately where we've been forced to go.
  - shadowoflight 5y ago
    Have you considered using a DES display or Sharp Memory LCD? I know the first is definitely cheaper than a branded E-Ink display, and the latter has much faster refresh rate and may be more suited to being a terminal (and may also be cheaper than E-Ink, I just haven't looked into it).
    - torgoguys 5y ago
      Yes we have considered it. Do you know of any such large (over 12 inches) panels with decent resolution and pretty fast updates that are available? Such a thing would probably help with power consumption. (e-inks consume a lot of power during screen updates). Looking at all of the options a simple full RLCD would probably be best for us--not eink--but we can't find appropriate parts for the size and resolution.
phil294 5y ago
Do you estimate thay this concept will ever come to life? (say, P1) If so, when? (I'm OP, sorry for unsolicitedly posting your notes to HN. I guess I am just a bit too excited for this)
- torgoguys 5y ago
  We have a prototype-y thing part way between P0 and P1 already. A "you can build it yourself" P1 version of that will probably be well-documented by early next year, but it won't be something you can just go out and buy yet. You'll have to gather together the parts needed, get the PCB produced, etc. The plan was for us to get something to that P1-stage and then go more public about the project. No worries on jumping the gun with posting it. It's not exactly a secret, just not *intended* for public consumption yet. I think when we have a couple of copies of P1s ready to show off (and videos of the product, and an actual product website! :-) having something put together we can show off would help open up some doors from people with more experience with getting hardware produced so people can get this more readily (even if just in kit form to start). Right now we're just doing one-off prototyping.
pwg 5y ago
Does the e-paper display you use have to "flash to black" on just about every change like so many of the Kindle whites do?
- torgoguys 5y ago
  Our panel supports partial refresh (no black flash) which makes it much more performant. The software does have to do occasional flashes to keep the screen tidy (otherwise you get a lot of ghosting over time). You can control how often this happens.

pietervdvn 5y ago

There is also this project, might be interesting to get in touch: https://hackaday.io/project/179890-india-navi https://hackaday.io/project/179890-india-navi

torgoguys 5y ago
For sure! Thank you for the pointer to it.

the_biot 5y ago

I realize this might simply put me into the "not target demographic" group, but what makes this so useful as a terminal, that a laptop won't do? I could understand the no-distraction writing i.e. word processor use-case that some people think E-Ink would be good for, but that doesn't appear in your list of possible applications either.

torgoguys 5y ago
Use as a distraction-free word processor is listed as a use-case if you read far enough. (As mentioned, the notes are a bit of a mess and weren't cleaned up for public consumption.) But, yes, a laptop can do pretty much everything Paperterm can do. A laptop can do everything a Kindle can do. A laptop can do a huge percent of what your phone can do. If the advantages of this niche device (e.g., sunlight-readable display with no backlight/blue-light, it's insane battery life, a no-compromise keyboard, and it's always-ready-"never-off" state) doesn't appeal to you, then you're right, you're probably just not in the target demographic. Those in the target market find a lot to love in such specs. This is explicitly a niche product, not trying to be everything for everyone (which is closer to what a laptop does). EDIT: if you have a look at the (also not ready for announcement) root of the domain, you'll see a brief pitch: http://www.paperterm.org/ http://www.paperterm.org/ This page also has notes-to-self in brackets, and I'm not in a spot where I can fix it right now, so ignore that.
- bee_rider 5y ago
  A distraction free word processor that could display PDFs along with the text (for writing LaTeX) would be a real godsend for me. In fact I am writing this very comment while distracting myself from some LaTex I am supposed to be writing...
  - GoOnThenDoTell 5y ago
    You could probably do that with a cheap laptop by cutting down a Linux distro then removing/breaking all network hardware antennas/ports
- BrowncoatShadow 5y ago
  I would be pretty close to the exact target for this product. The killer feature that would put it over the edge for me would be the possible "crashcart" KVM feature mentioned later in the notes. Lugging around a full KVM console is overkill (unless it is literally on a cart and you only need it at one location). And USB crash cart adapters are buggy, overpriced, and unmaintained. With serial, SSH, and KVM this will fill the perfect "there is a piece of hardware on the rack I need to interface with" role.
Aeolun 5y ago
I think this would be great for the same reason that using a Remarkable tablet is great. Exactly because it is limited in it’s application.

_ph_ 5y ago

Sounds like a very interesting project, I certainly would be tempted to have an eInk terminal. Can you post images on how the terminal looks on the eInk screens?

torgoguys 5y ago
I can give you images of how a terminal looks on e-ink screens but not with the final panel we're likely to use nor with final software, so probably best no to since it wouldn't be representative. Google can give you an idea of how it looks, but with a much smaller screen than we're using (ours is 13.3") so these images feel more cramped and look more "plain jane": https://www.google.com/search?q=e-ink+terminal&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=e-ink+terminal&um=1&ie=UTF-8... With the larger screen and more refined setup than these Google Images pictures show, it is very pleasant to use. I hands-down prefer it to a laptop running a terminal, except when color is important.

wanderingjew 5y ago

I built something similar: https://bbenchoff.github.io/pages/dumb.html https://bbenchoff.github.io/pages/dumb.html What are you going to do about the actual cost of the device? You've already got an e-paper display, but you're also adding a 'laptop' style enclosure, real keyboard, and if you're storing SSH keys, you're really close to running a cut-down Linux system. That's basically a laptop, and you could get the same thing with, you know, a laptop. Have you thought about scaling down the display, keyboard, and enclosure to something palm-top sized?

torgoguys 5y ago
That is very cool! Have you built a physical copy of it? No, I think the smaller size is probably a non-starter for the intended audience. This is meant to be a tool that a lot of these folks are using for hours and hours a day so overall typing and reading experience is paramount, and meant to be a "selling" point. Cost-wise, yes--we're still grappling with costs of the e-ink screen. It's the by far the largest expense in the unit. We've got a good lead that I unfortunately can't talk about at the moment (under NDA). A cut-down Linux really is overkill for this, and isn't capable of making some of the other specs happen (battery life, availability), at least as far as we've been able to determine. Custom code is unfortunately where we've been forced to go.
- shadowoflight 5y ago
  Have you considered using a DES display or Sharp Memory LCD? I know the first is definitely cheaper than a branded E-Ink display, and the latter has much faster refresh rate and may be more suited to being a terminal (and may also be cheaper than E-Ink, I just haven't looked into it).
  - torgoguys 5y ago
    Yes we have considered it. Do you know of any such large (over 12 inches) panels with decent resolution and pretty fast updates that are available? Such a thing would probably help with power consumption. (e-inks consume a lot of power during screen updates). Looking at all of the options a simple full RLCD would probably be best for us--not eink--but we can't find appropriate parts for the size and resolution.

phil294 5y ago

Do you estimate thay this concept will ever come to life? (say, P1) If so, when? (I'm OP, sorry for unsolicitedly posting your notes to HN. I guess I am just a bit too excited for this)

torgoguys 5y ago
We have a prototype-y thing part way between P0 and P1 already. A "you can build it yourself" P1 version of that will probably be well-documented by early next year, but it won't be something you can just go out and buy yet. You'll have to gather together the parts needed, get the PCB produced, etc. The plan was for us to get something to that P1-stage and then go more public about the project. No worries on jumping the gun with posting it. It's not exactly a secret, just not *intended* for public consumption yet. I think when we have a couple of copies of P1s ready to show off (and videos of the product, and an actual product website! :-) having something put together we can show off would help open up some doors from people with more experience with getting hardware produced so people can get this more readily (even if just in kit form to start). Right now we're just doing one-off prototyping.

pwg 5y ago

Does the e-paper display you use have to "flash to black" on just about every change like so many of the Kindle whites do?

torgoguys 5y ago
Our panel supports partial refresh (no black flash) which makes it much more performant. The software does have to do occasional flashes to keep the screen tidy (otherwise you get a lot of ghosting over time). You can control how often this happens.