8 ms·

Lemmy's default instance leans heavily to the contemporary american idea of leftism. This doesn't affect the actual software in any way, only that community is

• rektide 5y ago
  not disturbing. good.
  • rektide 5y ago
    i genuinely think this sort of good, do for ourselves, improve the world attempt- software as public good- is something that the left has a far far stronger bead on. the right, for all their history of rugged individualism, doesn't have a participatory background, doesn't have techno-inclusivity & open cyber-frontiers in their value-system. it's unastounding to me in the extreme that the right has very little presence on most of the fediverse.
• LeoPanthera 5y ago
  You're being rapidly downvoted but to play devil's advocate I wonder if you could explain why you think "American leftism" is "disturbing".
  • iszomer 5y ago
    For me, it wasn't a place to satisfy my intellectual curiosity.
    • s5300 5y ago
      American rightism essentially leans towards Christian theocracy. Does that lend itself more to your intellectual curiosity? There are obviously other political spectrums, but those are all extremely insignificant minorities. Surely you don't only find satiation to your curiosities in said extreme minorities, that seems rather unfulfilling as any meaningful advancement in them is highly statistically unlikely in you or your direct childrens lifetimes.
  • alex_munroe 5y ago
    For the same reason all the orthodox authoritarian ideologies are disturbing. Why would I want to join an online discussion forum where free thought isn't welcome? Having "leftist" in the description makes people (at least myself) automatically jump to the conclusion that one can get cancelled/banned/deplatformed for posting any thought or argument that disagrees with the mainstream. I'm not a conservative or anti-vaxxer or anything like that, but this culture really creeps me out. Also in the About page the author of the software says things like: > [Reddit's] libertarian founders have allowed some of the most racist and sexist online communities to fester on reddit for years (Implying that this community wouldn't permit certain types of discussion, defined by very broad and ambiguous terms that were weaponized such that they can be used against anyone who disagrees with the leftist ideology in any way). And criticizes reddit for being: > liberal, and pro-US, not left (leftism referring to the broad category of anti-capitalism) I wouldn't be comfortable with participating in a discussion moderated by a person who says things like that. Also, as a person who grew up in a country ruined by "anti-capitalism", I find that trend in American culture extremely disturbing. Can you think of any anti-capitalist country (now, or at any point in history) that you'd like to live in? Luckily this is a free software and anyone is free to run their own instance. Politics aside - I wonder if it would be possible to create an instance focused on free speech, without automatically attracting all the worst people?
    • smt88 5y ago
      You seem to place authoritarianism and capitalism on opposite ends of some spectrum, but they're unrelated. Russia, for example, is both authoritarian and capitalist. Capitalism != individual freedom != democracy. Those are all separate axes. > Having "leftist" in the description makes people (at least myself) automatically jump to the conclusion that one can get cancelled/banned/deplatformed for posting any thought or argument that disagrees with the mainstream. I'm not a conservative or anti-vaxxer or anything like that, but this culture really creeps me out. Outside of maybe 8chan, what is a community that won't ban you for saying something they find harmful? Left/right/liberal/conservative communities all have this. It's totally fine if a self-described left-leaning community is not for you, but there's nothing weird or creepy about it.
  • JohnHaugeland 5y ago
    if he uses the word "leftism" he can't say anything coherent about politics
    • jayd16 5y ago
      Tbf, the sub-lemmy(?) seems to describe itself as leftist.
    • darthrupert 5y ago
      What would you call it?
      • JohnHaugeland 5y ago
        I don't reduce myself to cliches, so, I wouldn't "call it" anything
        • zepto 5y ago
          That doesn’t seem coherent.
          • JohnHaugeland 5y ago
            That's cute. I haven't said anything meaningful about politics. What I said, perhaps a bit too abruptly to be well understood, was "the use of a non-meaningful piece of slang that is almost entirely held by a specific group of poorly informed folks is a red flag that any attempt to discuss politics will end in a likely mix of muh jerbs and dumbocrats." The phrase "leftist" properly applies to a group of people who essentially haven't existed in the United States in around 80 years. It would be like if someone went to a baseball stadium and started calling people soccer hooligans. That is not a person from whom to learn sports. Thanks for the attempt at a table turn. You've been a delight
            • zepto 5y ago
              > The phrase "leftist" properly applies to a group of people who essentially haven't existed in the United States. There are large numbers of people who describe themselves today as leftists, and there have been for the past 80 years. People across the political spectrum, academics, and the news media use the term in relation to contemporary politics. If you are using a definition that stopped being relevant 80 years ago, it will be hard for you to have a coherent discussion with people today.
  • fcklckdwns 5y ago
    The "American leftism" that promotes universal healthcare and reining in Wall Street is shared by a large chunk of the population of Western nations. The "American leftism" that promotes changing the genitals of 3-year-old children is completely alien to 99.99% of human experience throughout time and space. Hope that clarifies it.
    • jayd16 5y ago
      Er, hmm, circumcision is very common. Maybe you mean something else?
      • onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
        My understanding is that the far left is anti-circumcision.
        • zapzupnz 5y ago
          More to do with anti-unnecessary-medical-procedures-with-no-benefit-yet-lifelong-consequences-performed-on-infants-without-consent. It’s a question of body autonomy rather than circumcision as a practice unto itself; obviously, it’s medically necessary for many people later in life. My understanding is circumcision is just seen as the ‘done thing’ in the US whereas it’s not as common elsewhere. Certainly not as common in New Zealand.
    • smt88 5y ago
      > The "American leftism" that promotes changing the genitals of 3-year-old children is completely alien to 99.99% of human experience throughout time and space. This is utter nonsense and fear-mongering. There is no organized movement promoting changing genitals of 3-year-olds.
      • zepto 5y ago
        Not 3 year olds perhaps, but there is definitely an organized movement to promote early gender affirmation surgery.
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  • jim-jim-jim 5y ago
    Somebody can correct me if my timeline is off, but I think Lemmy was largely embraced by exiled Chapos, much like Voat became a Groyper den. I don't think it's even worth considering such a community left-wing. They're more like an anime poisoned grooming circle that embraced red aesthetics for shock value. However pathetic that sounds though, I'm the bigger loser for even being familiar with this nonsense.
    • sudosysgen 5y ago
      No, you're thinking of Hexbear. Chapos didn't go to Lemmygrad.
    • SerLava 5y ago
      Sure I'll bite, none of what you said is true, in either timing or circumstances. -They didn't go to Lemmygrad -No definition of leftism would exclude the very leftist people who went over to Hexbear, the Lemmy instance for exiled r/Chapotraphouse posters -they don't seem to be particularly into anime -they are very into left politics, socialism, trade unionism, anti-imperialism, and so on. So like they are left-wing
  • lmm 5y ago
    I'm not the person you replied to, but today's American leftism practically mandates a belief in blank-slatism on race, gender, and IQ, to an extent that’s inimical to sincere science in those areas. And that ends up having a wide impact on science generally and policy generally.
    • deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    • iszomer 5y ago
      "I don't want to be a product of my environment, I want the environment to be a product of me." ^So that's where this quote came from, TIL.. https://quillette.com/2017/01/12/the-blank-slateism-of-the-right/ https://quillette.com/2017/01/12/the-blank-slateism-of-the-r...
    • SerLava 5y ago
      Oh they don't like it when you repeatedly point out your favorite very sincere scientific facts collected by sincere scientists with the best calipers?
  • pugets 5y ago
    Modern American leftism, at least on social media, is really weird. You have a lot of these so-called leftists rebelling against the philosophies of Marx and other communist philosophers on very fundamental issues (e.g. gun ownership for the proletariat, or the freedom of speech) all because of the current political climate in America. At the same time, these people will support and protect Big Tech and other capitalist interests when it is politically convenient to do so. I've heard American leftism once jokingly called Socialism with Silicon Valley Characteristics. Ask any one of these new-age leftists what they think of Alex Jones' YouTube channel being banned, and they will hit you with a response that would disturb any of the Gen X leftists who grew up in an era where Communist was a dirty word and the protection of free speech was a top-most necessity. New-age leftists have grown up in the left-sympathetic social media era and cannot conceptualize the pendulum ever swinging the opposite direction.
    • jim-jim-jim 5y ago
      In practice I think mainstream liberals are the gleefully censorious ones, not leftists. In a sibling comment I called these guys losers, but you can't argue that they're not walking the walk by setting up their own platforms. The people in these alt communities have been kicked off Reddit for rightfully pointing out how astroturfed it is by advertisers, police, and military agencies, so I'm not sure if you'd find much love for big tech among their ranks. Setting up your own community with specific standards is totally fine imo.
      • Saptarishi 5y ago
        >Setting up your community with specific standards is totally fine imo In some sense I agree, but what happens when these communities begin to overflow with people, and chaos increases? It leads to opinion suppression( no I'm not talking about extreme opinions on any side of the political spectrum , I'm talking about opinions which differ from the status quo ), echo-chamber creation, and worst of all, unnecessary aggressive behaviour and mud slinging.
        • uabstraction 5y ago
  • the_third_wave 5y ago
    The American left manages to combine the worst of the traditional far left - authoritarianism, enforced collectivism, a total lack of ideological flexibility combined with an as total lack of historical insight - with a willingness, nay eagerness to use non-state commercial actors to enforce their doctrine. It is as if they read Ayn Rand and decided that she got everything backwards so they made their own philosophy of Subjectivism, with a sprinkling of critical theory and a dash of Maoism.
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• ddingus 5y ago
  So join them. I do not mean ideologically. Just in conversation. More of us learning to talk with one another better is a really good thing. The American idea of leftism varies widely, and on all axis too. A similar thing can be found in the right. Both have populist factions that have a lot in common. Many identify as indie too. They lack a solid party home. Both have moderate and conservative factions too. Authoritarianism is also on the rise generally. All of this can be disturbing. I find the economic policy that way right now myself. Labor seems to be organizing though. Others see that as disturbing! What I know, having had a ton of conversations in various venues around the nation is the body politic is far more complex. Everyone is listening to some loud or compelling voices and not talking with one another near enough to garner a better sense of where people are at and how policy might make a whole lot better sense. It does not have to be disturbing. Shouldn't in my view.
  • LAC-Tech 5y ago
    > I do not mean ideologically. Just in conversation. More of us learning to talk with one another better is a really good thing. The vast majority of people do not want to have that conversation (hence the flagged post of the grandparent).
    • ddingus 5y ago
      Why? I find the answer in most cases is worries over personal judgement. More of us quit doing that and more people will have that conversation. I usually lead with, "ignore the talking heads on TV." Worked wonders for me. I enjoy politics and culture again as do others I talk to. The other basic worry is inability to manage a conversation coupled with the idea of ideology being the means to better ends rather than the reasoning tool it really is. A person who maintains one ideology, sans a working understanding of others, will feel threatened when its merit is challenged. Fact is we have many solutions to the problems we face with no requirement they all conform to a single ideological frame.
  • unraveller 5y ago
    The creators say they don't want people not of their ilk joining so this idea that open debate is welcome is disingenuous. They don't allow anyone to federate with the main instance either if they don't also toe the political line.
• dflock 5y ago
  So? Early reddit was also quite left-ish.
  • onionisafruit 5y ago
    Early reddit seemed more libertarian to me. They couldn’t get enough of Ron Paul. I’m not a libertarian, but I kind of miss those days on reddit.
• guerrilla 5y ago
  You mean lemmy.ml? All I see is a bunch of science, privacy and climate stuff right now.
  • fulafel 5y ago
    Sounds like themes counter to the american right.
• s5300 5y ago
  Hmm... disturbing? The United States leftism leans heavily to the contemporary idea of all other developed western nations rightism... so are we to be seen as a bit disturbing by the rest of our nation peers? (hint, they mostly seem to :D )
  • darthrupert 5y ago
    I'm an european center/leftist and I have no idea what you're talking about.
    • s5300 5y ago
      Im saying that the current state of our (US) moderate left is effectively most other places moderate right. Our far left is most other places moderate left. Do you not see this to be true? Our far right is just full blown fascist/Christofacist now. We have $10,000 bounties on the heads of those assisting in seeking medical care in one of our largest states now.
• swiley 5y ago
  So does Reddit heh.
• ggm 5y ago
  Society as a whole, consistently tends to be more left wing than people appreciate. If you survey people in private, they show both selfish and collectivist opinions. In public, in some economies, declaring the collectivist view is harder. Collectivism, is essentially "left wing". It's the sense there is some basic equity out there, nobody "deserves" more (or less) than the individual. (obviously this is modulated by reality, economic and political) I like to believe 'we' are in a real majority. The point is the same, even if this isn't true: It's not some mythic 50/50 world, and there is no phantom "equity" out there which is a "balance" between libertarian-right, centerist and left views. Apes, penguins, take your pick. Collectivism is out there. Its a basic model. I'd call it "herd mentality" but that tends to have negative connotations. Sure, there are apex elements in collectivism. It doesn't undermine the main thesis: There is more collectivism, essential left-wing thinking, than a lot of people credit. In the US, because of individualism, this is often ignored. The belief "most" people in the US simply want to a) be left alone to b) sink or swim on their own and c) pay less taxes is a bit distorted. Really? They just want c).
  • zepto 5y ago
    The fact that humans are social is not relevant to whether a leftist political ideology should impose its preferred social structures by force. Capitalism allows people to organize collectively too. Proponents would claim that it enables more freedom to do so than ‘leftism’.
• kieselguhr_kid 5y ago
  I mean, there is a large (by Lemmy standards) Leninist server, which is indeed pretty left. But the idea that Leninism is widely embraced by the contemporary American left is a bit hysterical.
  • zepto 5y ago
    Leninism may not be by but Maoism was explicitly adopted by parts of the radical left in the 70s, many of whom are still influential for the current generation.
• unbad505 5y ago
  FWIF lemmy.ml isn't meant to be the default, but it is still run by the devs.