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Hours may correlate somewhat with output, but it's diminishing returns. We should optimise for productivity + life outside of work instead I'm glad the "I wor

Hours may correlate somewhat with output, but it's diminishing returns. We should optimise for productivity + life outside of work instead I'm glad the "I work XX hours per week" bench is slowly dying out - fools gold.

throwawaylinux 5y ago
Some people like working, either they like the work, prefer it to alternative uses of their time, or like earning more money. Taking it as a point of pride or boast is no better or worse than people boasting about their hobbies or children or anything else (that is to say it can range from interesting to obnoxious depending on the setting). I think we should stop caring about how others spend their time.
- philmcp 5y ago
  Ye, how people spend their time should definitely be up to them The problem arises, however, when overworking (or bragging about overworking) becomes part of the culture within a company e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56452494 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56452494
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    I didn't say anything about "overworking", and lots of problems (are alleged to) arise from lots of things, it doesn't always mean you can or should try to control them. That said, > "The sleep deprivation, the treatment by senior bankers, the mental and physical stress… I've been through foster care and this is arguably worse," one respondent said in the survey, which has been seen by the BBC. Seems like a lot more than just a culture of work going on there. Working long hours and bragging about overtime is not uncommon in a lot of blue collar work too (maybe moreso). People can earn really good money working a lot of overtime, and it's great they can choose to do that. If a lot of people have the same mindset or it turns a bit competitive, there is nothing inherently wrong with that either. It is not at all the same thing as people being threatened by management or bullied by coworkers for refusing unreasonable working conditions.
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
Do you live to work or work to live? The former might get depressed if they can’t work as much, eg a researcher who is really interested in their topic.
OminousWeapons 5y ago
> We should optimise for productivity + life outside of work instead Says who? If you want to work 40 hours a week, have your weekends off, and relax more, that's great. You are optimizing for more time off than me as you value it more than I do; cool. However, if I want to work more than 40 hours a week and my total output ends up being higher than yours then I should absolutely be rewarded by my company for it. All things being equal, I should promote faster; I should get better raises; etc. You are optimizing for one thing, I am optimizing for another, and that should be fine.
- em-bee 5y ago
  as an employer i value a healthy and balanced work ethic and a frienly and cooperative work environment. personally i don't mind if you prefer to work more hours, but i'll be watching your performance. if it doesn't scale with the number of hours you put in then you'll have to cut down. also if i get any complaints from anyone else in the team. i can't have your performance demoralizing everyone else, because in the end it is the performance of the whole team that matters. i also won't be giving you extra opportunities for promotion or raises, because that would be unfair to others who can't work as much as you. again, doing so would be demoralizing for everyone else. case in point, there is a company where anyone working more than 20 hours a week got reduced pay for those extra hours.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - OminousWeapons 5y ago
    That's totally valid and as an employer you are obviously entitled to set your work culture and select for the types of employees you want working for you. It sounds like I would be a poor fit for your org.
  - notjulianjaynes 5y ago
    >there is a company where anyone working more than 20 hours a week got reduced pay for those extra hours. what company and in what country? that's a compelling idea, provided the pay is decent enough that one would only need to work 20hrs a week.

throwawaylinux 5y ago

Some people like working, either they like the work, prefer it to alternative uses of their time, or like earning more money. Taking it as a point of pride or boast is no better or worse than people boasting about their hobbies or children or anything else (that is to say it can range from interesting to obnoxious depending on the setting). I think we should stop caring about how others spend their time.

philmcp 5y ago
Ye, how people spend their time should definitely be up to them The problem arises, however, when overworking (or bragging about overworking) becomes part of the culture within a company e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56452494 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56452494
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  I didn't say anything about "overworking", and lots of problems (are alleged to) arise from lots of things, it doesn't always mean you can or should try to control them. That said, > "The sleep deprivation, the treatment by senior bankers, the mental and physical stress… I've been through foster care and this is arguably worse," one respondent said in the survey, which has been seen by the BBC. Seems like a lot more than just a culture of work going on there. Working long hours and bragging about overtime is not uncommon in a lot of blue collar work too (maybe moreso). People can earn really good money working a lot of overtime, and it's great they can choose to do that. If a lot of people have the same mindset or it turns a bit competitive, there is nothing inherently wrong with that either. It is not at all the same thing as people being threatened by management or bullied by coworkers for refusing unreasonable working conditions.

seanmcdirmid 5y ago

Do you live to work or work to live? The former might get depressed if they can’t work as much, eg a researcher who is really interested in their topic.

OminousWeapons 5y ago

> We should optimise for productivity + life outside of work instead Says who? If you want to work 40 hours a week, have your weekends off, and relax more, that's great. You are optimizing for more time off than me as you value it more than I do; cool. However, if I want to work more than 40 hours a week and my total output ends up being higher than yours then I should absolutely be rewarded by my company for it. All things being equal, I should promote faster; I should get better raises; etc. You are optimizing for one thing, I am optimizing for another, and that should be fine.

em-bee 5y ago
as an employer i value a healthy and balanced work ethic and a frienly and cooperative work environment. personally i don't mind if you prefer to work more hours, but i'll be watching your performance. if it doesn't scale with the number of hours you put in then you'll have to cut down. also if i get any complaints from anyone else in the team. i can't have your performance demoralizing everyone else, because in the end it is the performance of the whole team that matters. i also won't be giving you extra opportunities for promotion or raises, because that would be unfair to others who can't work as much as you. again, doing so would be demoralizing for everyone else. case in point, there is a company where anyone working more than 20 hours a week got reduced pay for those extra hours.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- OminousWeapons 5y ago
  That's totally valid and as an employer you are obviously entitled to set your work culture and select for the types of employees you want working for you. It sounds like I would be a poor fit for your org.
- notjulianjaynes 5y ago
  >there is a company where anyone working more than 20 hours a week got reduced pay for those extra hours. what company and in what country? that's a compelling idea, provided the pay is decent enough that one would only need to work 20hrs a week.