5 ms·

That's not really a thing. Also, wait till you hear how much an academic makes from the articles they publish, and from those lucrative research grants from big

That's not really a thing. Also, wait till you hear how much an academic makes from the articles they publish, and from those lucrative research grants from big-[oil,pharma,etc].

zabzonk 5y ago
> That's not really a thing. Sorry, it is. I've worked in higher education and I've seen it happen. What other explanation do you have for the sales of these ludicrous "textbooks"?
- jjk166 5y ago
  It's not like there is a cheap alternative that the professors can switch to. All new edition textbooks are expensive. They can't specify out of print editions because then you can't guarantee that your students can get access to them, and the textbook companies update the problems in the books just enough to make using a different edition from the one specified impractical. Some publishers may incentivize using their particular textbook, but there isn't some vast conspiracy to jack up prices. The fact is textbooks are a niche product with a steep demand curve that can be paid for with subsidized loans, of course they're going to be ridiculously overpriced.
  - zabzonk 5y ago
    Then don't require (note, require) students to buy textbooks at all - what are these lecturers supposed to be doing? Are there no libraries. Don't outdate them every year to make second hand ones useless. > ridiculously overpriced Well, you admit it yourself. And the books aren't even any good!
    - jjk166 5y ago
      The lecturers are supposed to be lecturing. 300 kids taking a course in a 90 day semester, 10 copies in a library, each kid gets 3 days per semester with the class textbook. Would you pay 25000 for that semester of education? Maybe some students can go halvsies on a copy but the number of copies of the book that you need is roughly equivalent to the number of students. And before you say "well why doesn't the library just buy more copies" remember who pays for the library to buy those copies. The professors don't make the changes to the textbooks, the publishers do. Professors don't like it either, they have to update all of their materials every year to keep up with the changes too. No one is denying textbooks are expensive, I'm denying the conspiracy theory that professors and publishers are all colluding to manipulate the market.
  - professoretc 5y ago
    Yeah, I'm not even sure how that would work? Like, if my department goes with a particular textbook, or a certain number of classes all use textbooks from the same publisher, then sometimes we get discounts on things like solutions manuals or custom editions, but I don't know how a publisher would pay a particular professor for picking their textbook.
    - disgruntledphd2 5y ago
      Well they all send you free books, in the hope you'll pick their one.
      - bernulli 5y ago
        I'm still missing the part where I get rich! Please tell me! Truth be told, in my field the intro level textbooks are essentially indistinguishable, down to graphics and specific examples, and every publisher has one. Even if I got free samples for all of them (I don't), there is zero difference for the student. You look at the classics, maybe check out a new book, but in the end pick the one you're already familiar with because you don't have any time to waste.
        disgruntledphd2 5y ago
        It does depend on the field, in mine (psychology) the textbooks can be very, very different due to the size and bifurcation of the field. But yeah, you won't get rich, but you will get a full bookshelf, so you'll be rich in knowledge ;)
        bernulli 5y ago
        Haha, I wish! Most of the books for the intro classes I teach are essentially redundant. It's a lucky occasion when you teach something where you learn something completely new that you find interesting, and these classes are typically small, so there's even less incentive for a publisher.
  - wing-_-nuts 5y ago
    I always found it funny that there were yearly rewrites to textbooks on subjects which hadn't really changed that much in hundreds of years. You telling me there isn't a good calculus textbook in the public domain yet? Really? This is a totally solvable problem, but the powers that be are getting by on grift.
    - jjk166 5y ago
      It's not the information in the chapters that changes, it's the problems that students do for assignments that change. For example a problem where one train is going 105 mph and another is going 90 mph gets swapped for one where one plane is going 605 mph and another is going 590. Conceptually it's the same, but obviously a student doing the one problem is going to get a radically different answer from the one doing the other. And while calculus might have some public domain works that are acceptable, most fields have advanced pretty far since 1925, which might I remind you was before the discovery of DNA, penicillin, plate tectonics, molecular orbital theory, the neutron, the invention of digital electronics, Keynesian economics, Hemingway's first novel, etc.
  - betwixthewires 5y ago
    As a professor, create your own PDF and give it to all the students free, update it if there's a new development in the field, which is something you'd know as a professor. It is really not that hard, these professors often write or collaborate on the textbooks themselves so they're writing them anyway. If the textbook is needed for learning and not just a way to get some extra money then this would be standard practice.
    - bernulli 5y ago
      What's the longest text you've ever written that you can judge 'it's not that hard' to write a 500p standard textbook? As a corollary, only very few professors actually have their own textbook and thus don't make any money whatsoever from choosing a specific textbook. Finally, why would you deny someone money for work they did, typically in their spare time? Who else do you think should give away their work for free? Musicians? Doctors? Carpenters? Bakers? Do you accept money for the work you do?
      - betwixthewires 5y ago
        I never said anything about someone giving their work away for free. Roll it into tuition, whatever, but this predatory textbook cartel hustle has to stop. The professor is giving a class, they're going to teach all of what is in the textbook, and for those who can't write it themselves and use ones written by other professors, they can give out that PDF, they don't have to write one. I was simply responding to this: > It's not like there is a cheap alternative that the professors can switch to. All new edition textbooks are expensive. They can't specify out of print editions because then you can't guarantee that your students can get access to them, and the textbook companies update the problems in the books just enough to make using a different edition from the one specified impractical. in the parent comment. I'm pointing out that there is a cheap alternative. We have had digital documents for decades, there are ways to keep those documents up to date without rewriting the entire document, there is no excuse to have a publisher and distributor for educational companion text documents for students in classrooms. It is glaringly obvious that the status quo with textbooks is artificially maintained even though technologically there is absolutely no reason it has to be this way.
- bernulli 5y ago
  You can compare the price of college textbooks to the price of textbooks for professionals and you will see there is no difference. It's simply a niche market. Personally, I prefer decade old textbooks, hardcover, beautifully typeset, clear diagrams and equations, black and white. Of course that doesn't exist for every field. But try to imagine the complaints you get from students for teaching from 'obsolete' textbooks that aren't even in four color print.
jasonladuke0311 5y ago
I'm guessing you haven't dealt with the spiral-bound, Kinkos-printed "text" written by the professor, sold for $75, and updated every semester to prevent resale? My wife had two of these every semester for her last two years of college.
- bernulli 5y ago
  How is that a "kickback from the publishers for forcing these (always crap) textbooks on their students" ? I'm not denying that black sheep exist, I am denying a pervasive conspiracy of "big textbook" to the benefit of the professors. Also, an easy solution to not everyone buying Kinko-printed spiral bound lecture notes easily comes to mind...
  - bernulli 5y ago
    I see the downvotes, but I still don't see how some guy self-publishing and printing his own book at Kinkos is proof for a conspiracy in which publishers collude with professors to force students to buy books from that publisher. If anything, it's an example for the exact opposite.

That's not really a thing. Also, wait till you hear how much an academic makes from the articles they publish, and from those lucrative research grants from big-[oil,pharma,etc].

zabzonk 5y ago

> That's not really a thing. Sorry, it is. I've worked in higher education and I've seen it happen. What other explanation do you have for the sales of these ludicrous "textbooks"?

jjk166 5y ago
It's not like there is a cheap alternative that the professors can switch to. All new edition textbooks are expensive. They can't specify out of print editions because then you can't guarantee that your students can get access to them, and the textbook companies update the problems in the books just enough to make using a different edition from the one specified impractical. Some publishers may incentivize using their particular textbook, but there isn't some vast conspiracy to jack up prices. The fact is textbooks are a niche product with a steep demand curve that can be paid for with subsidized loans, of course they're going to be ridiculously overpriced.
- zabzonk 5y ago
  Then don't require (note, require) students to buy textbooks at all - what are these lecturers supposed to be doing? Are there no libraries. Don't outdate them every year to make second hand ones useless. > ridiculously overpriced Well, you admit it yourself. And the books aren't even any good!
  - jjk166 5y ago
    The lecturers are supposed to be lecturing. 300 kids taking a course in a 90 day semester, 10 copies in a library, each kid gets 3 days per semester with the class textbook. Would you pay 25000 for that semester of education? Maybe some students can go halvsies on a copy but the number of copies of the book that you need is roughly equivalent to the number of students. And before you say "well why doesn't the library just buy more copies" remember who pays for the library to buy those copies. The professors don't make the changes to the textbooks, the publishers do. Professors don't like it either, they have to update all of their materials every year to keep up with the changes too. No one is denying textbooks are expensive, I'm denying the conspiracy theory that professors and publishers are all colluding to manipulate the market.
- professoretc 5y ago
  Yeah, I'm not even sure how that would work? Like, if my department goes with a particular textbook, or a certain number of classes all use textbooks from the same publisher, then sometimes we get discounts on things like solutions manuals or custom editions, but I don't know how a publisher would pay a particular professor for picking their textbook.
  - disgruntledphd2 5y ago
    Well they all send you free books, in the hope you'll pick their one.
    - bernulli 5y ago
      I'm still missing the part where I get rich! Please tell me! Truth be told, in my field the intro level textbooks are essentially indistinguishable, down to graphics and specific examples, and every publisher has one. Even if I got free samples for all of them (I don't), there is zero difference for the student. You look at the classics, maybe check out a new book, but in the end pick the one you're already familiar with because you don't have any time to waste.
      - disgruntledphd2 5y ago
        It does depend on the field, in mine (psychology) the textbooks can be very, very different due to the size and bifurcation of the field. But yeah, you won't get rich, but you will get a full bookshelf, so you'll be rich in knowledge ;)
        bernulli 5y ago
        Haha, I wish! Most of the books for the intro classes I teach are essentially redundant. It's a lucky occasion when you teach something where you learn something completely new that you find interesting, and these classes are typically small, so there's even less incentive for a publisher.
- wing-_-nuts 5y ago
  I always found it funny that there were yearly rewrites to textbooks on subjects which hadn't really changed that much in hundreds of years. You telling me there isn't a good calculus textbook in the public domain yet? Really? This is a totally solvable problem, but the powers that be are getting by on grift.
  - jjk166 5y ago
    It's not the information in the chapters that changes, it's the problems that students do for assignments that change. For example a problem where one train is going 105 mph and another is going 90 mph gets swapped for one where one plane is going 605 mph and another is going 590. Conceptually it's the same, but obviously a student doing the one problem is going to get a radically different answer from the one doing the other. And while calculus might have some public domain works that are acceptable, most fields have advanced pretty far since 1925, which might I remind you was before the discovery of DNA, penicillin, plate tectonics, molecular orbital theory, the neutron, the invention of digital electronics, Keynesian economics, Hemingway's first novel, etc.
- betwixthewires 5y ago
  As a professor, create your own PDF and give it to all the students free, update it if there's a new development in the field, which is something you'd know as a professor. It is really not that hard, these professors often write or collaborate on the textbooks themselves so they're writing them anyway. If the textbook is needed for learning and not just a way to get some extra money then this would be standard practice.
  - bernulli 5y ago
    What's the longest text you've ever written that you can judge 'it's not that hard' to write a 500p standard textbook? As a corollary, only very few professors actually have their own textbook and thus don't make any money whatsoever from choosing a specific textbook. Finally, why would you deny someone money for work they did, typically in their spare time? Who else do you think should give away their work for free? Musicians? Doctors? Carpenters? Bakers? Do you accept money for the work you do?
    - betwixthewires 5y ago
      I never said anything about someone giving their work away for free. Roll it into tuition, whatever, but this predatory textbook cartel hustle has to stop. The professor is giving a class, they're going to teach all of what is in the textbook, and for those who can't write it themselves and use ones written by other professors, they can give out that PDF, they don't have to write one. I was simply responding to this: > It's not like there is a cheap alternative that the professors can switch to. All new edition textbooks are expensive. They can't specify out of print editions because then you can't guarantee that your students can get access to them, and the textbook companies update the problems in the books just enough to make using a different edition from the one specified impractical. in the parent comment. I'm pointing out that there is a cheap alternative. We have had digital documents for decades, there are ways to keep those documents up to date without rewriting the entire document, there is no excuse to have a publisher and distributor for educational companion text documents for students in classrooms. It is glaringly obvious that the status quo with textbooks is artificially maintained even though technologically there is absolutely no reason it has to be this way.
bernulli 5y ago
You can compare the price of college textbooks to the price of textbooks for professionals and you will see there is no difference. It's simply a niche market. Personally, I prefer decade old textbooks, hardcover, beautifully typeset, clear diagrams and equations, black and white. Of course that doesn't exist for every field. But try to imagine the complaints you get from students for teaching from 'obsolete' textbooks that aren't even in four color print.

jasonladuke0311 5y ago

I'm guessing you haven't dealt with the spiral-bound, Kinkos-printed "text" written by the professor, sold for $75, and updated every semester to prevent resale? My wife had two of these every semester for her last two years of college.

bernulli 5y ago
How is that a "kickback from the publishers for forcing these (always crap) textbooks on their students" ? I'm not denying that black sheep exist, I am denying a pervasive conspiracy of "big textbook" to the benefit of the professors. Also, an easy solution to not everyone buying Kinko-printed spiral bound lecture notes easily comes to mind...
- bernulli 5y ago
  I see the downvotes, but I still don't see how some guy self-publishing and printing his own book at Kinkos is proof for a conspiracy in which publishers collude with professors to force students to buy books from that publisher. If anything, it's an example for the exact opposite.