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COVID has accelerated this big time. Why spend $5,000 a semester to watch a Zoom lecture from an average professor when you can open YouTube in a new tab and se

COVID has accelerated this big time. Why spend $5,000 a semester to watch a Zoom lecture from an average professor when you can open YouTube in a new tab and see a world-class professor share the same information for free? It makes no rational sense. The moment that a serious, legitimate credential system appears, every average university will disappear overnight. We'll be left with an oligarch class that attends the top ±30 universities and everyone else getting a AmaGoogBook certificate of completion.

smt88 5y ago
> Why spend $5,000 a semester to watch a Zoom lecture from an average professor when you can open YouTube a new tab and see a world-class professor share the same information for free? It makes no rational sense. Because there is much more possible value in college than just the education. Socializing is a huge part of it. College is a good place to learn how to make friends, date, network, etc. It's also nearly free at many schools, so I don't envision the future you're describing ever happening. Most 18-22 year olds couldn't think of a better place to be than on a campus almost exclusively filled with people in their age group.
- ceilingcorner 5y ago
  I am talking specifically about COVID and Zoom. I didn’t say anything about on-campus learning.
  - paulcole 5y ago
    > I didn’t say anything about on-campus learning You should have. It’s not “world class professors” on YouTube that people are watching instead of their own university’s zoom classes. They’re not paying for zoom classes because they want to learn on campus. They still want to go to college, they just don’t want to learn online.
- endominus 5y ago
  This reminds me of a passage from Bryan Caplan's book, "The Case Against Education." Paraphrasing, there is nothing stopping you from walking into a lecture at Harvard or MIT or any other renowned center of learning. No one will ask you for identification or lock you outside. You can buy or download the same textbook and fill out the same homework. (In the case of your "socialization" value, again, no one is stopping you from just walking into a campus and socializing with peers there) No one does it because we intuitively understand that there is no real value in doing so; the purpose such institutions serve is credentialing, not education. (End paraphrase)
  - yesenadam 5y ago
    No real value?! Gee. Well, I did it :-) I did 2 or 3 years of philosophy courses at Sydney Uni. I mean, I just turned up. At the beginning of each semester I'd start doing every possible course, then just keep doing the ones I liked, with interesting/good/admirable lecturers, which turned out to be a lot, 2 or 3 times the amount of lectures weekly than if I'd been enrolled. Also was on their mailing list so also went to special visiting lectures, a regular discussion group, etc etc. No exam stress! I had such a great time. But yeah, most (non-university) people I mentioned it to laughed as if it was crazy.
    - craftinator 5y ago
      Most people don't have the time freedom to be able to do this. The opportunity cost would be too high, as they need to work to eat, and sitting in a class isn't work.
  - slfnflctd 5y ago
    Socialization is a huge part of it - perhaps the biggest in terms of impact - because students who worked alongside each other during a similar stage of life, living within short walking distance of each other 24/7, working toward a similar goal, develop a bond which can be immensely valuable later on in networking for job opportunities. Those students are much less likely to develop such a bond with some rando who just walked in off the street to check out what's going on. That person has zero investment in the experience other than expressed interest and would I'm certain be measurably less successful forming relationships with other students who could help their career in the future. They aren't in the same tribe. It makes me sick to say it, but this can be even more important than the credentialing. There are multiple stories of students dropping out to start companies and still benefitting from their college peer network in ways that wouldn't happen for someone that wasn't actually a 'true peer'. I think this is simply a biological tendency at the end of the day and don't see any easy way of changing it.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- imtringued 5y ago
  The campus is closed.
perryizgr8 5y ago
> Why spend $5,000 a semester to watch a Zoom lecture from an average professor when you can open YouTube in a new tab and see a world-class professor share the same information for free? Because most employers will not even consider your application without a degree.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
OJFord 5y ago
Because you don't pay for instruction, you pay for examination and certification.
- pg_bot 5y ago
  You don't pay for instruction or certification you pay for signaling. A student from Arizona State can be more competent than one from Harvard. Who do you think is going to have more doors opened for them?
  - OJFord 5y ago
    The Harvard certificate, yes.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    > A student from Arizona State can be more competent than one from Harvard. The relevant question from the perspective of those doing the hiring is what is the probability a student from Arizona State is more competent than one from Harvard? Replace competent with well connected and/or otherwise useful.
- BlargMcLarg 5y ago
  Which in turn have massively devalued, given the majority of the job market in most Western countries is only interested in the unicorn willing to eat old bread.
- sails 5y ago
  I've heard the following described as the broadly tangible benefits, in no particular order. Will try find the source - Education - Certification - Network
- randomdata 5y ago
  While you are right, the question still stands. There is no value in the latter two. The only value is in the first, and that's not what you're paying for, so why pay at all?
- cblconfederate 5y ago
kingaillas 5y ago
>spend $5,000 a semester That's what I spent a semester (total)... in the early 90's. These days it is more like $5,000 a semester (per class)!
tablespoon 5y ago
> COVID has accelerated this big time. Why spend $5,000 a semester to watch a Zoom lecture from an average professor when you can open YouTube in a new tab and see a world-class professor share the same information for free? It makes no rational sense. I don't get that line of thinking: 1. Education isn't a passive lecture-consumption activity. A "world-class professor" who put a lecture on youtube is going to have exactly zero time to talk to you as a student. 2. There's probably not that much difference between the teaching ability of a "world-class professor" and your "average" good professor. That's especially true for undergrad subjects. I think you're assuming a false equivalency, akin to "why have parents when you can watch videos made by the best parents in the world on television?" The tech version may have many similarities, but it's not equivalent.

smt88 5y ago

> Why spend $5,000 a semester to watch a Zoom lecture from an average professor when you can open YouTube a new tab and see a world-class professor share the same information for free? It makes no rational sense. Because there is much more possible value in college than just the education. Socializing is a huge part of it. College is a good place to learn how to make friends, date, network, etc. It's also nearly free at many schools, so I don't envision the future you're describing ever happening. Most 18-22 year olds couldn't think of a better place to be than on a campus almost exclusively filled with people in their age group.

ceilingcorner 5y ago
I am talking specifically about COVID and Zoom. I didn’t say anything about on-campus learning.
- paulcole 5y ago
  > I didn’t say anything about on-campus learning You should have. It’s not “world class professors” on YouTube that people are watching instead of their own university’s zoom classes. They’re not paying for zoom classes because they want to learn on campus. They still want to go to college, they just don’t want to learn online.
endominus 5y ago
This reminds me of a passage from Bryan Caplan's book, "The Case Against Education." Paraphrasing, there is nothing stopping you from walking into a lecture at Harvard or MIT or any other renowned center of learning. No one will ask you for identification or lock you outside. You can buy or download the same textbook and fill out the same homework. (In the case of your "socialization" value, again, no one is stopping you from just walking into a campus and socializing with peers there) No one does it because we intuitively understand that there is no real value in doing so; the purpose such institutions serve is credentialing, not education. (End paraphrase)
- yesenadam 5y ago
  No real value?! Gee. Well, I did it :-) I did 2 or 3 years of philosophy courses at Sydney Uni. I mean, I just turned up. At the beginning of each semester I'd start doing every possible course, then just keep doing the ones I liked, with interesting/good/admirable lecturers, which turned out to be a lot, 2 or 3 times the amount of lectures weekly than if I'd been enrolled. Also was on their mailing list so also went to special visiting lectures, a regular discussion group, etc etc. No exam stress! I had such a great time. But yeah, most (non-university) people I mentioned it to laughed as if it was crazy.
  - craftinator 5y ago
    Most people don't have the time freedom to be able to do this. The opportunity cost would be too high, as they need to work to eat, and sitting in a class isn't work.
- slfnflctd 5y ago
  Socialization is a huge part of it - perhaps the biggest in terms of impact - because students who worked alongside each other during a similar stage of life, living within short walking distance of each other 24/7, working toward a similar goal, develop a bond which can be immensely valuable later on in networking for job opportunities. Those students are much less likely to develop such a bond with some rando who just walked in off the street to check out what's going on. That person has zero investment in the experience other than expressed interest and would I'm certain be measurably less successful forming relationships with other students who could help their career in the future. They aren't in the same tribe. It makes me sick to say it, but this can be even more important than the credentialing. There are multiple stories of students dropping out to start companies and still benefitting from their college peer network in ways that wouldn't happen for someone that wasn't actually a 'true peer'. I think this is simply a biological tendency at the end of the day and don't see any easy way of changing it.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
imtringued 5y ago
The campus is closed.

perryizgr8 5y ago

> Why spend $5,000 a semester to watch a Zoom lecture from an average professor when you can open YouTube in a new tab and see a world-class professor share the same information for free? Because most employers will not even consider your application without a degree.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

OJFord 5y ago

Because you don't pay for instruction, you pay for examination and certification.

pg_bot 5y ago
You don't pay for instruction or certification you pay for signaling. A student from Arizona State can be more competent than one from Harvard. Who do you think is going to have more doors opened for them?
- OJFord 5y ago
  The Harvard certificate, yes.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  > A student from Arizona State can be more competent than one from Harvard. The relevant question from the perspective of those doing the hiring is what is the probability a student from Arizona State is more competent than one from Harvard? Replace competent with well connected and/or otherwise useful.
BlargMcLarg 5y ago
Which in turn have massively devalued, given the majority of the job market in most Western countries is only interested in the unicorn willing to eat old bread.
sails 5y ago
I've heard the following described as the broadly tangible benefits, in no particular order. Will try find the source - Education - Certification - Network
randomdata 5y ago
While you are right, the question still stands. There is no value in the latter two. The only value is in the first, and that's not what you're paying for, so why pay at all?
cblconfederate 5y ago

kingaillas 5y ago

>spend $5,000 a semester That's what I spent a semester (total)... in the early 90's. These days it is more like $5,000 a semester (per class)!

tablespoon 5y ago

> COVID has accelerated this big time. Why spend $5,000 a semester to watch a Zoom lecture from an average professor when you can open YouTube in a new tab and see a world-class professor share the same information for free? It makes no rational sense. I don't get that line of thinking: 1. Education isn't a passive lecture-consumption activity. A "world-class professor" who put a lecture on youtube is going to have exactly zero time to talk to you as a student. 2. There's probably not that much difference between the teaching ability of a "world-class professor" and your "average" good professor. That's especially true for undergrad subjects. I think you're assuming a false equivalency, akin to "why have parents when you can watch videos made by the best parents in the world on television?" The tech version may have many similarities, but it's not equivalent.