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"Covid spike protein", would that be the one which is coded for by the mRNA we're injecting into people's bodies? But that wouldn't make sense because that woul

"Covid spike protein", would that be the one which is coded for by the mRNA we're injecting into people's bodies? But that wouldn't make sense because that would be unethical, so they must be talking about a different one.

ostenning 5y ago
Its been more than 2 weeks and after bloodwork, ecgs and nearly going to the ER my heart and chest still haven’t recovered from the second Pfizer shot. Even though I dont have the expertise to decipher this scientific paper, from my negative experience your concerns are absolutely valid. I don’t understand why people are so quick to downvote
- bsaul 5y ago
  seing this kind of reaction (downvoting), on HN, on a comment that is completely relevant to a published paper makes me loose faith in human kind. People absolutely should stop trying to second guess political opinions and "side", and rather focus on actual meaning. Otherwise we're lost, and this comment section will soon look like twitter.
- bamboozled 5y ago
  Sorry to hear bout this, I'm curious what your symptoms are?
- redis_mlc 5y ago
  Anecdotes are in fact empirical science. HN (and dang) like to mouth the word "science", but are in fact anti-science. The discussions of corona on HN in the past 18 months have been shamefully ignorant and anti-science.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tru3_power 5y ago
Why the downvote? Can someone explain if this is true or not? Would be a good chance to clear this misconception up if so.
- torstenvl 5y ago
  I downvoted the parent comment because (a) it was smarmy and sarcastic and (b) it makes baseless ethical allegations.
  - geoduck14 5y ago
    I don't know man. I had the exact same question.
  - unanswered 5y ago
    Share and enjoy!
Andys 5y ago
Yes it is the same spike protein, but in a limited dose. I guess the prevailing wisdom is that the dose makes the poison and a little bit of spike protein damage is acceptable compared to a much bigger amount from actual infection and disease.
bamboozled 5y ago
I had Pfizer and it still doesn't trouble me that much, I will catch Covid19 anyway, I'm just less likely to end up with a serious case of it or die. Why people would just immediately attack the vaccine and not discuss the fact that hundreds of millions, eventually billions of will be exposed to way higher levels of spike protein through actual infection is beyond me. I agree that it's not ideal, but what was the alternatives? Let it go wild, destroy the economy, let hospitals collapse?
- Andys 5y ago
  Why is there a false dichotomy that it's the vaccine or nothing? Why can't there just be a better vaccine. What incentive do pharma companies even have to make a better vaccine, rather than one that is just "good enough" to be shipped as a product to a ready, desperate market.
  - NamTaf 5y ago
    Let's put it into context: the current batch of covid vaccines are spectacularly effective and compare favourably to vaccines we have for other diseases that are the result of decades of research. It really is hard to overstate how shockingly effecttive these covid vaccines are for being 'gen1' ones. They were genuinely a shock to the scientific community when their efficacy results were first announced, especially considering that other attempts at coronavirus vaccines had been relatively ineffective. For example, Varicella is 85% effective against any infecttion and approx 100% against severe infection. [1]. Polio is about 90% with 2 doses. [2] Influenza vaccines sit at about 40-60%. [3] Of course, it's also important to point out that they are improving them. Work is already underway to produce vaccines targetting the Delta strain more directly, in an effort to resolve some of the effectiveness loss that gen1 vaccines have against it. Indeed, this is one of the major advantages of mRNA vaccines - the iteration time from new design to new drug is a matter of weeks, so overall iteration for boosters is similarly shortened. This is extremely attractive for use against influenza and coronavirus which mutate fairly rapidly. The incentive for pharma groups to do this is twofold: 1) the US/UK and other similarly vaccinated populations will want boosters and will pay for them, and 2) that the vaccine status outside of the US/UK is radically different, with most countries barely scraping 10-20% of their population vaccinated. There's still a lot of people needing vaccines. [1]: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/varicella/hcp-effective-duration.htm https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/varicella/hcp-effective... [2]: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/effectiveness-duration-protection.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/effectiveness-dur... [3]: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm
thatsamonad 5y ago
This is only partially true. The mRNA vaccines don’t generate the full protein: > mRNA vaccines tell our cells to make a piece of the “spike protein” that is found on the surface of the SARS-CoV-2 virus. Since only part of the protein is made, it does not harm the vaccine recipient, but it is antigenic and thus stimulates the immune system to make antibodies. Source: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/hcp/mrna.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/hcp/mrna.html Additionally, one of the studies referenced in the linked paper also states that negative thromboembolic events are observed in vector-based vaccines but are absent in mRNA vaccines: > Here, we present first molecular evidence that vector-based vaccines encoding the Spike protein exhibit a problem that is completely absent in mRNA-based vaccines. This is due to the fact that during the vaccination step, the adenoviral DNA enters the nucleus and use the host machinery to transcribe its (trans)genes inside the nucleus. Source: https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-558954/v1 https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-558954/v1
- unanswered 5y ago
  This is really interesting info; I appreciate the contribution to the discussion!
sjg007 5y ago
It’s not a match to the human receptor. Not an issue.
tzs 5y ago
The current mRNA vaccines are injected into an upper arm muscle, not the heart. The mRNA is taken up by cells near the injection rather than circulating throughout the body. The spike protein made by the that mRNA presents on the surface of those cells where the immune system responds to it.
- bsaul 5y ago
  i thought i've read multiple times vaccines went to places it wasn't supposed to, far away from the injection site (i don't have any source to share atm). Is it wrong ?

ostenning 5y ago

Its been more than 2 weeks and after bloodwork, ecgs and nearly going to the ER my heart and chest still haven’t recovered from the second Pfizer shot. Even though I dont have the expertise to decipher this scientific paper, from my negative experience your concerns are absolutely valid. I don’t understand why people are so quick to downvote

bsaul 5y ago
seing this kind of reaction (downvoting), on HN, on a comment that is completely relevant to a published paper makes me loose faith in human kind. People absolutely should stop trying to second guess political opinions and "side", and rather focus on actual meaning. Otherwise we're lost, and this comment section will soon look like twitter.
bamboozled 5y ago
Sorry to hear bout this, I'm curious what your symptoms are?
redis_mlc 5y ago
Anecdotes are in fact empirical science. HN (and dang) like to mouth the word "science", but are in fact anti-science. The discussions of corona on HN in the past 18 months have been shamefully ignorant and anti-science.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

tru3_power 5y ago

Why the downvote? Can someone explain if this is true or not? Would be a good chance to clear this misconception up if so.

torstenvl 5y ago
I downvoted the parent comment because (a) it was smarmy and sarcastic and (b) it makes baseless ethical allegations.
- geoduck14 5y ago
  I don't know man. I had the exact same question.
- unanswered 5y ago
  Share and enjoy!

Andys 5y ago

Yes it is the same spike protein, but in a limited dose. I guess the prevailing wisdom is that the dose makes the poison and a little bit of spike protein damage is acceptable compared to a much bigger amount from actual infection and disease.

bamboozled 5y ago

I had Pfizer and it still doesn't trouble me that much, I will catch Covid19 anyway, I'm just less likely to end up with a serious case of it or die. Why people would just immediately attack the vaccine and not discuss the fact that hundreds of millions, eventually billions of will be exposed to way higher levels of spike protein through actual infection is beyond me. I agree that it's not ideal, but what was the alternatives? Let it go wild, destroy the economy, let hospitals collapse?

Andys 5y ago
Why is there a false dichotomy that it's the vaccine or nothing? Why can't there just be a better vaccine. What incentive do pharma companies even have to make a better vaccine, rather than one that is just "good enough" to be shipped as a product to a ready, desperate market.
- NamTaf 5y ago
  Let's put it into context: the current batch of covid vaccines are spectacularly effective and compare favourably to vaccines we have for other diseases that are the result of decades of research. It really is hard to overstate how shockingly effecttive these covid vaccines are for being 'gen1' ones. They were genuinely a shock to the scientific community when their efficacy results were first announced, especially considering that other attempts at coronavirus vaccines had been relatively ineffective. For example, Varicella is 85% effective against any infecttion and approx 100% against severe infection. [1]. Polio is about 90% with 2 doses. [2] Influenza vaccines sit at about 40-60%. [3] Of course, it's also important to point out that they are improving them. Work is already underway to produce vaccines targetting the Delta strain more directly, in an effort to resolve some of the effectiveness loss that gen1 vaccines have against it. Indeed, this is one of the major advantages of mRNA vaccines - the iteration time from new design to new drug is a matter of weeks, so overall iteration for boosters is similarly shortened. This is extremely attractive for use against influenza and coronavirus which mutate fairly rapidly. The incentive for pharma groups to do this is twofold: 1) the US/UK and other similarly vaccinated populations will want boosters and will pay for them, and 2) that the vaccine status outside of the US/UK is radically different, with most countries barely scraping 10-20% of their population vaccinated. There's still a lot of people needing vaccines. [1]: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/varicella/hcp-effective-duration.htm https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/varicella/hcp-effective... [2]: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/effectiveness-duration-protection.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/effectiveness-dur... [3]: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm

thatsamonad 5y ago

This is only partially true. The mRNA vaccines don’t generate the full protein: > mRNA vaccines tell our cells to make a piece of the “spike protein” that is found on the surface of the SARS-CoV-2 virus. Since only part of the protein is made, it does not harm the vaccine recipient, but it is antigenic and thus stimulates the immune system to make antibodies. Source: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/hcp/mrna.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/hcp/mrna.html Additionally, one of the studies referenced in the linked paper also states that negative thromboembolic events are observed in vector-based vaccines but are absent in mRNA vaccines: > Here, we present first molecular evidence that vector-based vaccines encoding the Spike protein exhibit a problem that is completely absent in mRNA-based vaccines. This is due to the fact that during the vaccination step, the adenoviral DNA enters the nucleus and use the host machinery to transcribe its (trans)genes inside the nucleus. Source: https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-558954/v1 https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-558954/v1

unanswered 5y ago
This is really interesting info; I appreciate the contribution to the discussion!

sjg007 5y ago

It’s not a match to the human receptor. Not an issue.

tzs 5y ago

The current mRNA vaccines are injected into an upper arm muscle, not the heart. The mRNA is taken up by cells near the injection rather than circulating throughout the body. The spike protein made by the that mRNA presents on the surface of those cells where the immune system responds to it.

bsaul 5y ago
i thought i've read multiple times vaccines went to places it wasn't supposed to, far away from the injection site (i don't have any source to share atm). Is it wrong ?