7 ms·

So, the price rises hit the poorest. Fantastic.....

by worldofmatthew 5y ago

Hackbraten 5y ago
Buying a phone that lasts you seven years may still be cheaper than buying two.
- worldofmatthew 5y ago
  Your average person breaks devices before than and you expect people to have access to a load of money at once?
  - danhor 5y ago
    A very capable smartphone currently costs ~200€, so if prices rise by 50% (an unbelievable amount), that would be 300€. Certainly not nothing, but car repairs or a new dishwasher are much more expensive. I expect the poorest to benefit the most from extended longevity, since more affluent people "need" the better camera or a more fashionable design the most. I know quite a few people with >3 year old smartphones, but mostly with custom roms, since stock firmware isn't usable anymore.
    - worldofmatthew 5y ago
      1. 100 euros is a lot of money to the poorest people in society. Many of them can't afford a car or dishwasher. 2. "longevity" means nothing when most people keep dropping their phone. Even used phones that appear perfect can start bootlooping months after buying because of damage caused by the first owner and the eBay seller won't accept returns by than, even if you could prove it was not caused by you.
      - commoner 5y ago
        Most people I know get a phone case to limit damage to their phone. A case is an inexpensive investment that usually pays for itself many times over. Someone who is really clumsy or in a situation where they are much more likely than average to drop their phone should purchase phone insurance. And for uninsured people who happen to break their phone, it would still be cheaper to repair it than to get a new one. Repaired phones still benefit from longer support lifecycles, and the proposed legislation would ensure that spare parts are affordable and available.
        worldofmatthew 5y ago
        A case is fantastic at protecting the outer areas of the phone by being a layer that comes in contact with the ground. They do fuck all to protect the internals as the forces still exist and can break a phone months down the road from the drop.
        commoner 5y ago
        That contrasts sharply with my experiences, having dropped phones that were adequately protected by cheap cases on many occasions. These phones were still working fine years later, with no internal or external damage. Users who are more concerned about phone damage can buy tougher multi-layer cases, which are still great investments.
  - Hackbraten 5y ago
    The former is why right to repair is so important. The latter may be a problem but you could still buy an older (mid-cycle) model instead of the latest one and still get updates for years.
    - worldofmatthew 5y ago
      Right to repair is nearly meaningless on the budget-end as a repair guy will charge £50 to £100 for the labour plus parts with their own mark-up. Does everyone on hackernews get paid £100k a year and spend over £1,000 on a phone?
      - Hackbraten 5y ago
        If a person can’t afford expected repair expenses during the useful lifetime of a product, then they can’t afford that product. You wouldn’t buy a car either without planning for repair costs.
      - AdrianB1 5y ago
        A repair in Romania (EU, unlike UK) has a labor cost of 10-20EUR depending on the complexity; in most cases the "repair" is just replacing a component that has connectors, so it takes minutes, or swapping a new battery. A £100 fee sounds like science-fiction or lack of common sense.
        krageon 5y ago
        A fee of 100-120 euros is not unusual in a part of the EU that isn't dirt poor, nothing science fiction about it.
II2II 5y ago
The question is, would it lower the total cost of ownership? A phone that lasts twice as long will cost roughly half as much (perhaps a bit more if repairs are needed). There is also no good reason for the cost of security fixes to vastly increase the cost for manufacturers if they slow down the release cycle for hardware and software. This isn't 2010 after all. The pace of meaningful improvements is considerably slower.
- anpago 5y ago
  Most iPhones hit the second user market whether gifted or sold on. They have a far higher trade in or resale value than any other brand. It actually causes a bigger second hand market of phones if they have a longer life. Plenty of users still want the latest or there abouts. While others will happily go for the nearly new.
- jsuqo 5y ago
  People don't change phones, especially cheap phones, because they stop getting security updates. The result of this law would be that cheap phones will get more expensive for no benefit at all and expensive phones will cost the same.
  - commoner 5y ago
    Users of low-end phones would still benefit from the extended support lifecycle because their device and data would remain secure for a longer period of time.
    - jsuqo 5y ago
      Have you asked them if they are in agreement of that in exchange for a more expensive phone?
      - commoner 5y ago
        They're free to purchase second-hand phones, if they want to buy an even cheaper device. When most phones are supported for 7 years instead of 2-3, the market of second-hand phones that are still supported will expand greatly.
jsuqo 5y ago
You've described most EU policies.

So, the price rises hit the poorest. Fantastic.....

Hackbraten 5y ago

Buying a phone that lasts you seven years may still be cheaper than buying two.

worldofmatthew 5y ago
Your average person breaks devices before than and you expect people to have access to a load of money at once?
- danhor 5y ago
  A very capable smartphone currently costs ~200€, so if prices rise by 50% (an unbelievable amount), that would be 300€. Certainly not nothing, but car repairs or a new dishwasher are much more expensive. I expect the poorest to benefit the most from extended longevity, since more affluent people "need" the better camera or a more fashionable design the most. I know quite a few people with >3 year old smartphones, but mostly with custom roms, since stock firmware isn't usable anymore.
  - worldofmatthew 5y ago
    1. 100 euros is a lot of money to the poorest people in society. Many of them can't afford a car or dishwasher. 2. "longevity" means nothing when most people keep dropping their phone. Even used phones that appear perfect can start bootlooping months after buying because of damage caused by the first owner and the eBay seller won't accept returns by than, even if you could prove it was not caused by you.
    - commoner 5y ago
      Most people I know get a phone case to limit damage to their phone. A case is an inexpensive investment that usually pays for itself many times over. Someone who is really clumsy or in a situation where they are much more likely than average to drop their phone should purchase phone insurance. And for uninsured people who happen to break their phone, it would still be cheaper to repair it than to get a new one. Repaired phones still benefit from longer support lifecycles, and the proposed legislation would ensure that spare parts are affordable and available.
      - worldofmatthew 5y ago
        A case is fantastic at protecting the outer areas of the phone by being a layer that comes in contact with the ground. They do fuck all to protect the internals as the forces still exist and can break a phone months down the road from the drop.
        commoner 5y ago
        That contrasts sharply with my experiences, having dropped phones that were adequately protected by cheap cases on many occasions. These phones were still working fine years later, with no internal or external damage. Users who are more concerned about phone damage can buy tougher multi-layer cases, which are still great investments.
- Hackbraten 5y ago
  The former is why right to repair is so important. The latter may be a problem but you could still buy an older (mid-cycle) model instead of the latest one and still get updates for years.
  - worldofmatthew 5y ago
    Right to repair is nearly meaningless on the budget-end as a repair guy will charge £50 to £100 for the labour plus parts with their own mark-up. Does everyone on hackernews get paid £100k a year and spend over £1,000 on a phone?
    - Hackbraten 5y ago
      If a person can’t afford expected repair expenses during the useful lifetime of a product, then they can’t afford that product. You wouldn’t buy a car either without planning for repair costs.
    - AdrianB1 5y ago
      A repair in Romania (EU, unlike UK) has a labor cost of 10-20EUR depending on the complexity; in most cases the "repair" is just replacing a component that has connectors, so it takes minutes, or swapping a new battery. A £100 fee sounds like science-fiction or lack of common sense.
      - krageon 5y ago
        A fee of 100-120 euros is not unusual in a part of the EU that isn't dirt poor, nothing science fiction about it.

II2II 5y ago

The question is, would it lower the total cost of ownership? A phone that lasts twice as long will cost roughly half as much (perhaps a bit more if repairs are needed). There is also no good reason for the cost of security fixes to vastly increase the cost for manufacturers if they slow down the release cycle for hardware and software. This isn't 2010 after all. The pace of meaningful improvements is considerably slower.

anpago 5y ago
Most iPhones hit the second user market whether gifted or sold on. They have a far higher trade in or resale value than any other brand. It actually causes a bigger second hand market of phones if they have a longer life. Plenty of users still want the latest or there abouts. While others will happily go for the nearly new.
jsuqo 5y ago
People don't change phones, especially cheap phones, because they stop getting security updates. The result of this law would be that cheap phones will get more expensive for no benefit at all and expensive phones will cost the same.
- commoner 5y ago
  Users of low-end phones would still benefit from the extended support lifecycle because their device and data would remain secure for a longer period of time.
  - jsuqo 5y ago
    Have you asked them if they are in agreement of that in exchange for a more expensive phone?
    - commoner 5y ago
      They're free to purchase second-hand phones, if they want to buy an even cheaper device. When most phones are supported for 7 years instead of 2-3, the market of second-hand phones that are still supported will expand greatly.

jsuqo 5y ago

You've described most EU policies.