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I feel like I'm going crazy. Hasn't TikTok been proven malicious in it's excessive user tracking and data theft? Why does everyone I know still use it? Outside

• toshk 5y ago
  kids use it
• ed25519FUUU 5y ago
  There was a man who tried to force TikTok out of the US or out of Chinese control…
  • quickthrowman 5y ago
    Let’s be honest about it: the former president was trying to reward Larry Ellison for his support, that’s all it was and that’s why it didn’t happen.
    • ed25519FUUU 5y ago
      Actually it did happen, and was reversed this year. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/09/biden-revokes-and-replaces-trump-executive-orders-that-banned-tiktok.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/09/biden-revokes-and-replaces-t...
• jeromegv 5y ago
  How is that different than Facebook? We have known for Facebook shady data policies for 10 years, and that has never prevented people from using it, why do you think suddenly people would care more when it comes to TikTok?
  • jpomykala 5y ago
    US government is simply more civilized and predictable.
    • elliebike 5y ago
      ...really?
      • bbvxxdrgjn 5y ago
        Uh, yes. If you think the modern US government and Winnie the Pooh's wannabe Nazi empire are even in the same league, you are likely a CCP plant. The US has done a lot of incoherent, incompetent, and bad things. But the US won't disappear you if you say the wrong thing about Biden and isn't in the middle of literally rounding up an ethnic and religious minority and putting them in camps to cleanse their society of that ethnicity. Just as a start. So yes, really. Fucking idiots.
      • deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      • quickthrowman 5y ago
        Let me pose a pair of questions that might make this easier to understand: -Is the US government currently involved in ethnic cleansing? -Is China currently involved in ethnic cleansing?
        • refenestrator 5y ago
          The US was killing more central asians than China every year of the last 20 years straight. Hopefully no longer true going forward. So, I guess it comes down to definitions and how you spin things. Personally, I'd say the country that killed more people was doing more bad stuff, but you can bracket things and explain why some 'count' more than others if you want.
          • MathCodeLove 5y ago
• Alex3917 5y ago
  > Hasn't TikTok been proven malicious in it's excessive user tracking and data theft? Even if you use the website?
• lm28469 5y ago
  > We're giving a Chinese company the ability to control the content consumption, and therefore beliefs and knowledge, of entire countries. Note that non american feel the same way about google, netflix, amazon &co
  • ericls 5y ago
    Nope
  • blacktriangle 5y ago
    And they should.
  • 28433552 5y ago
    I feel that way about Google, Netflix, and Amazon. I’m an American…
  • maverwa 5y ago
    Just a single point, but as a non american, I can say that I do not feel "the same way" exactly. Its close, in that I think, the discussion in the EU on Huaweis network equipment in telco nets, is a little bit overheated and I'd like to see the same requirements to be enacted on, for example, CISCO, whos security track record is ... not that good? But I still think that 'chinese company owning a majority of internet video traffic' is WAY more scary than 'US company owning a majority of internet traffic'. Maybe thats just bias, maybe not. But yes, I think there should be more relevant non-US big IT players to add more variety. But for a lot of reasons, the EU, and especially germany, just does not cut it in regard of IT expertise anymore. I am not saying this from a perspective of "disappointed patriotism" or something like that. Its more about having more choice would make thinks more interessting. But on the other hand: more choice makes thinks like movie streaming less attractive. I do not want to have to sign with Netflix, Amazon, Disney, HBO, Apple TV AND Maxdome. I guess we still cannot have the cake, and eat it, too.
    • blitzar 5y ago
      > Maybe thats just bias, maybe not No maybe about it, it is.
• colesantiago 5y ago
  who cares about china, isn't this not the same for US companies? why the constant obsession with china? this just complete fear mongering, let the kids play on it.
  • finfinfin 5y ago
    Because China is an authoritarian regime?
    • deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    • colesantiago 5y ago
      So? TikTok is just an app, what is point?
      • finfinfin 5y ago
        The point is that a company that is controlled by an authoritarian regime has a vast influence on the US population.
        • colesantiago 5y ago
          Then you must have been fine with Trump trying to ban the app then? > The point is that a company that is controlled by an authoritarian regime Hard evidence for this claim? Is TikTok Inc, controlled by China?
          • finfinfin 5y ago
            > Then you must have been fine with Trump trying to ban the app then? That was an authoritarian action and I did not support it. China tightly controls all large businesses, including ByteDance. If you need hard evidence on how this relationship works - look it up, there is plenty of information online.
    • 5y ago
• boltzmann_ 5y ago
  Sadly, only HN users care about this kind of stuff
• skohan 5y ago
  The obvious answer is that most people just want to watch funny and entertaining videos, and don't care about some externalities which don't even seem real to them.
• lucideer 5y ago
  > Hasn't TikTok been proven malicious in it's excessive user tracking and data theft? Unless you've read some new news I haven't, not any more than Google (YouTube) or Facebook have. Why is TikTok different?
• elliebike 5y ago
  It's no different to most other social networks that commit mass abuse of user data and track everyone, everywhere. Being a US-based company doesn't make this any better, just look at Facebook. The only people who worry are people on HN. Most other people aren't aware of what's going on, or just don't care.
  • ipaddr 5y ago
    And the state department. Letting that on your phone is allowing your contacts, photos and text messages to be read. Same goes with facebook. But facebook will try to profit off of your data. Tiktok data goes to China. I don't know what they are doing with it..
    • simiones 5y ago
      > But facebook will try to profit off of your data. Tiktok data goes to China. I don't know what they are doing with it.. FB data also goes to the US government. I don't know what they are doing with it..
      • ipaddr 5y ago
        The US government is monitoring traffic at all major points including undersea cables. The US reasons are complex ranging from terrorism to cyberwar faire to unknown reasons. One reason China does it to monitor and control their own people. Speaking out against China in the west will often put family in China at risk and any business interests. Monitoring journalist, tracking western movement, cyberwar faire, are all reasons.
      • blitzar 5y ago
        The US want to take all my money and put me in jail. I like my freedom. China want to blackmail me to do their bidding. I dont actually have much shame, so probably wont work so good. There are days where I think the lesser of two evils when it comes to invading my privacy might be the regime whos jurisdiction I am not, and likely never will be present in.
    • 5y ago
• BiteCode_dev 5y ago
  As a Frenchmen, Youtube is exactly the same: - algo is a black box, and uncalibrated youtube makes my eyes bleed; - own by the biggest spy on the planet, google, known for manipulating information, monopolistic behavior, participation in the worst gov programs (e.g: PRISM); - impose American censorship rules to the entire world, and makes creators do inane cuts to fit some terrible metrics Besides, the typical Tik Tok customer doesn't give a damn about those things. They didn't on facebook, insta, whatsapp, or whatever. They don't even know it's an issue, "have nothing to hide", don't care about privacy, power centralization, citizen spying and so on. So Tik Tok or something else doesn't matter.
  • treeman79 5y ago
    Explaining these to the average person makes you seem like a conspiracy nut case. No of some of the same people will go on about the illuminati controlling everything. But you talk specific companies or policies and you get an eye roll.
    • throwaway210222 5y ago
      > people will go on about the illuminati controlling everything But we do. :)
  • MathCodeLove 5y ago
    I see where you're coming from, but Youtube isn't nearly as opaque as Tiktok. You can actually search for videos on youtube, typically content is longer and has a higher production quality which reduces probability of doom-scrolling. As someone else mentioned, TikTok is intentionally designed to be addictive and gamified, much more so that youtube or facebook. And, objectively speaking, the US government is far preferable to the CCP. The US has it's issues and has made mistakes in the past, the CCP is still putting Muslims in concentration camps and exercises regular authoritarian controll over it's citizens. Militarily, the US is allied with most EU powers (including France) and generally has good intentions for it's allies. China, on the other hand, finds itself on the outside of most alliances, and considering that even their own people are treated poorly, I can only imagine that their intentions for others are not positive. American tech companies take your data and sell it to advertisers, I don't like it, but they do. The US government only accesses it if they have a reason to do so and subpoena the specific information needed. The Chinese government? I have no doubt that they're collecting data for much more nefarious purposes. Intelligence indicates that they've been improving their military forces massively in the last several decades. It wouldn't be hard for them to subtly start slipping in propaganda into the tiktok feeds of countries they intend to invade, and then they'll have local-national support. I think it's easy to look at this and say objectively that it's worse. If Youtube or Facebook were owned by France or Germany I would hold the same belief that tiktok is worse. It's not fear of some mysterious "other", but fear of a proven enemy to freedom and human rights, China.
• danlugo92 5y ago
  > and therefore beliefs and knowledge, of entire countries As opposed to whomever controls Facebook/Google? The ship has sailed. And with upcoming decentralized web technologies that ship will cross the point of no return.
• spaniard89277 5y ago
  From a non-us perspective it isn't really that different.
• Snd_ 5y ago
  As a European: this is extremely funny. America has been doing this for years. Apparently only when it's not America doing these things it becomes a problem?
  • 28433552 5y ago
    Well, you could certainly see why the situation changes when the service is controlled by an adversarial government. At least the US services are only clandestinely influenced by the US government. TikTok is practically a Trojan horse
    • sudosysgen 5y ago
      US services operate with the full cooperation of Google and Amazon, and the ability to compel them however they want for foreigners otherwise.
  • terracottage 5y ago
    Kinda. Many Americans run around with a notion of some kind of noble entrepreneur who provides the bounty of endless choice in consumer goods, even if it's a corporation. The fact that many different brands come from the same factory tends to be overlooked. Americans are also unique in their tolerance for constant advertising where other cultures would consider it gauche and intrusive. TikTok is imo goddamn scary. It is explicitly set up to hook people with gamification techniques, showering likes on new users so they come back for more. Only the subject matter is often politics, activism and intertribal warfare.
    • ca01an 5y ago
      I don't see how it is any worse than the many western social media apps and games that use the same addiction inducing techniques
  • AlexAndScripts 5y ago
    America is an ally, if not formally then the shared westernism. China is most definitely not.
• pilooch 5y ago
  TikTok algorithm is like a tamgotchi with short memory. The echo chamber is actual much less than on other systems, or at least this is my actual understanding. I've been working on AI and ML for 20+y now, I'm always interested is testing the systems out there from the user side. Overall, I've been surprised by TikTok, as I did find it very enjoyable actually, and easily 'trainable'.
  • bobobob420 5y ago
    Why does YouTube not change their algorithim. It is clearly sub tier to tik tok, they have the data and skill set to provide new and entertaining videos but the recommended feed has been so stale and stagnant for a few years, constantly pushing videos you’ve seen or ones you clearly don’t want to watch. How much of tik tok’s success do you think is their algorithim for recommending content. I heard from numerous people how addicting it is and how every video is different. Do you think the short videos give more instant gratification which has a Large effect? I use YouTube shorts and for the most part it is really entertaining
    • wutbrodo 5y ago
      Yea, It may be as simple as the length. There's a vastly higher frequency of samples when every video is twenty seconds long. It's also clearly designed around a different experience, a constant consume-or-scroll feed as popularized by Instagram. YouTube shorts also has this, but regular YouTube clearly doesn't, given that there's just enough latency between video skips that it feels like the algorithm is "making mistakes" at a much lower number of skips.
      • xnx 5y ago
        Exactly right. More data beats better algorithms every time. Because YouTube is (foolishly IMO) trying to turn itself into television, they've pursued 10+ minute videos even when there's only ~30 seconds of content. Tiktok's success is well deserved.
    • whywhywhywhy 5y ago
• 28433552 5y ago
  I stepped back from a group chat because the fellows in it swore by “Mental Health TikTok,” where therapists give mental health advice. This is concerning to me. Beyond that, the data collection and the way it mixes young-but-of-age mildly sexual content with underage guys imitating them makes me stay far away. I enjoyed the handsome men in various states of undress but couldn’t find a way to make the app not veer into underage content, no matter how many times I told it what I liked. Disturbing.
  • wutbrodo 5y ago
    > I stepped back from a group chat because the fellows in it swore by “Mental Health TikTok,” where therapists give mental health advice. This is concerning to me What's concerning about this? I don't mean this rhetorically: I'm genuinely curious, as I've heard people say similar things recently. It seems to me that, like metabolic health, there's a pretty large body of basic mental health advice that's safe and salutary, and that doesn't displace heavy-duty mental Healthcare for those who need it (in the same way that healthy recipe tips don't displace insulin shots).
    • Rd6n6 5y ago
      Mental health discussions and advice are traditionally given under strong privacy guarantees
      • wutbrodo 5y ago
        You've mixed together two-way (discussion) and one-way (advice) mental health communication. Your point only applies to discussion, and the tiktok example only involves advice. Concretely, what privacy concern do you see in watching a video with mental health tips? Do you think this privacy concern similarly extends to reading a Wikipedia article on (eg) CBT techniques? Or am I misunderstanding, and "Mental health tiktok" involves users describing their mental health issues in videos that they post, and a back-and-forth with those who are claiming to "treat" them?
        • 5y ago
• BoxOfRain 5y ago
  The depressing reality is that your average person on the street couldn't care less. I've tried bringing it up to friends and family in the least evangelical way I can, and the most common response is that they simply don't care about their privacy; to them the content on the platform is worth dealing with an app that's accused of malicious practices and "so what if some company in China gets my data, I'm not planning on going to China". Talking about things that are well known in the tech industry to people without that background has a nasty habit of making you look like a conspiracy theorist to Johnny Random.
  • angelzen 5y ago
    They may not be going to China, but China is coming over.
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• ajay-b 5y ago
  I think the reason people use it is the reason why people still use dating apps. Choice is infinite. Every time you swipe, is a new person, a new video, a new hit of dopamine. An insatiable appetite for something new. It is also power. With the dating apps it’s the power to dismiss someone with a swipe, no need to waste time looking at their profile. In TikTok there are no YouTube ads, and you can swipe quickly past videos that don’t spike interest (dopamine).
• DenisM 5y ago
  Perhaps the fact that a Chinese company has grown so powerful will finally spur the Congress to a break up all digital oligarchs.
• aerosmile 5y ago
  Pretty clear from several comments in this thread that Non-US citizens have a hard time distinguishing the risk-levels of a US-centric vs a China-centric world. Particularly insulting to see the French comments. Ever wondered what Europe would be looking like today if it was China and USSR that ended up defeating the Nazis?
• swiley 5y ago
  Tok Tok is just YouTube but with the opaqueness turned up to 11. Most of the people who use YouTube without worry think Tik Tok is an improvement.
• wickoff 5y ago
  As a person who is hopelessly addicted to refreshing feeds I can say that TikTok is the first app in 10 years that replaced reddit - my previous digital drug of choice. Their algo is just to good. People without rich and fulfilling lives don't stand a chance.
• Levitz 5y ago
  It turns out most people are actually sheeple.
• swebs 5y ago
  >Hasn't TikTok been proven malicious in it's excessive user tracking and data theft? Try watching this video on Youtube without giving Google your passport or credit card info. I found it impossible, even with youtube-dl. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIhmoyoOR1s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIhmoyoOR1s
  • shadofx 5y ago
    It would be an issue if Youtube's doing it for their own benefit, but they are just honoring Nintendo's request to not show that content to minors, so Youtube isn't at fault here.
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• malwarebytess 5y ago
  Nope, you're not going crazy. But the thing is every other social media company does the same thing. So railing against tiktok was ineffective because everyone already accepts this. And I was one of the people early on (even before the merger) talking about it. Even the "china controls it" part isn't persuasive because, I mean, what isn't china influencing these days? And TBH I don't give a shit if it's Chinese or American powers collecting my information, I don't want either of them doing it. And consider that these American corporations influence other nations in the same way China may influence America and they accept it -- of course Americans would accept it too. My word to people who hate TikTok's privacy invading tech and practices is to lobby to pass a sweeping privacy law or shut up, basically. But that would mean wrecking a huge part of the parasitic tech industry so it's not going to happen. Money > ethics.
• crocodiletears 5y ago
  Domestic companies like Facebook and Google are already doing all the censorship, manipulation, and tracking I'd expect from the Chinese. Why should I care at this point?