11 ms·

One of the many reasons why I am always quite reserved when visiting the US.

by polotics 5y ago

throwaway894345 5y ago
This is a terrible thing and laws need to be changed, but it’s an absolute aberration.
- jakelazaroff 5y ago
  Define “aberration”? As of 2015, police via civil forfeiture stole more than burglars. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/23/cops-took-more-stuff-from-people-than-burglars-did-last-year/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/23/cops-...
  - adventured 5y ago
    An estimated $68.8 billion over 20 years approximately, between state and federal authorities. The Institute for Justice has published a couple of their Policing for Profit profiles (that attempts to keep track of and update on civil asset forfeiture figures and progress/regression), with the most recent in 2020. California is averaging $25m per year the past 17 years; Illinois is averaging $33m per year; Texas is averaging $18m per year; Florida is averaging $49m per year. Some of the best states are Idaho, Montana, Wisconsin, New Mexico, Maine, New Hampshire, Virginia, Colorado, West Virginia, Iowa, Wyoming, Hawaii, Oregon, Connecticut and Missouri. Here's an infographic by the Institute for Justice for 2018, sizing the states by their civil asset forfeiture thefts (note, the color of the box doesn't coordinate to the scale of theft, that coordinates to state law grades): https://i.imgur.com/sqg4FiC.jpg https://i.imgur.com/sqg4FiC.jpg It's too bad these scumbags aren't targeting Michael Dell ($50b), Jim Walton ($65b) or MacKenzie Scott ($61b) with civil asset forfeiture. Sorry MacKenzie, that Amazon stock no longer belongs to you, it has been 'impounded' by the Washington State Police. It's being held as, uhm, evidence that you may have had a role in the operation of a massive counterfeit goods ring. Congress or the Supreme Court might finally get around to stopping the practice (or maybe they'd just place a ceiling on how much you can steal from one person).
    - stevespang 5y ago
      . . ."you may have had a role in the operation of a massive counterfeit goods ring" - - - only that the wealthy folks you mentioned have access to any dozens of high profile lawyers which would cost them less than 1/100th of 1% of their assets. This is all about targeting the middle and poor class - - - whom in too many cases cannot afford to hire decent attorneys just to try to get back what was stolen from them, especially if the legal cost it is equal to or less than the amount stolen. So called "Justice for All" was never "EQUAL Justice for All" - - even though it's a hideous mockery that "Equal Justice for All" is on the side of the US Supreme Court Building.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    So what are the odds that it happens to a given American or tourist? Ideally we could accept that this (or any other given topic) is bad without feeling the need to exaggerate its significance to ourselves. This is what I miss the most about the pre-Twitter days. Bring on the downvotes.
    - me_me_me 5y ago
      if you are tourist you might as well paint a bullseye on your car. How a tourist is going to fight in a foreign country against police of that country?
      - throwaway894345 5y ago
        This is pretty easily testable. If tourists have “a bullseye” on them, then surely we would expect a significant share of tourists have experienced CF—say 25%. So where is the evidence that a quarter of tourists to the US have said experience?
  - xyzzyz 5y ago
    Not all civil forfeiture is theft. Too much of it is, to be sure, but it is still mostly used to forfeit proceedings of crime.
    - loeg 5y ago
      It’s all theft. Restitution and fines can be assessed without guilty-until-proven-innocent forfeiture.
    - betwixthewires 5y ago
      If a person committed a crime and you can prove it, charge them with the crime then take whatever assets you can prove were gained from criminal activity. There is no merit in civil asset forfeiture whatsoever, regardless if it is done to criminals or everyone else.
- veidr 5y ago
  it is absolutely not an aberration, it is the status quo, it happens to thousands of people a year, it's happened on camera during many episodes of C.O.P.S. (an old popular TV show where camera crews follow police officers around doing their police job), and it mostly happens to non white people (of course) but it also happens to white male citizens, too — some of whom happen to be software engineers going to buy a used car off craigslist or some shit, who have posted to this very website (can't find the link now, as my kids are rioting, but it's there)
  - dnautics 5y ago
    I think gp means by aberration, "it's not something that most people have to worry about". Which is true. If even 10% of Americans had to deal with this it would become illegal. The police prey on those they think they can get away with, and those who have a lot of assets to forfeit (but not too much). They are often right.
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      Yes, this is correct, and I can’t imagine any other definition of the word. Accepting the claim that this happens to thousands every year, that still puts us in “odds of being struck by lightning” territory. It’s still wrong, the laws should be changed, but no one should fear coming to the US on account of it.
    - michaelt 5y ago
      What makes you think you and I aren't the kind of people the police can get away with preying on?
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - dnautics 5y ago
        Even if you fit the skin color type, AND the car type AND the speeding profile, you'd probably STILL have to make multiple trips driving up and down states where your license plate doesn't match to bring the likelihood up above "aberrant"... You would be driving so much you wouldn't have time to read and comment hn. (I just drove across four states and there was no time for hn, and I'm an addict).
- a3n 5y ago
  No, it's not an aberration. Cops in various departments around the country take classes to do this most effectively. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=asset+forfeiture+classes&t=lm&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=asset+forfeiture+classes&t=lm&ia=w...
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    That doesn’t refute my “aberration” claim. If you can demonstrate that even 1% of citizens or tourists have been subjected to civil forfeiture then I’ll withdraw my claim. But I’m pretty sure CF is on the order of “struck by lightning”. Of course, the reading comprehension of people in this thread has been aggressively low, so I will repeat that none of this vindicates CF.

One of the many reasons why I am always quite reserved when visiting the US.

throwaway894345 5y ago

This is a terrible thing and laws need to be changed, but it’s an absolute aberration.

jakelazaroff 5y ago
Define “aberration”? As of 2015, police via civil forfeiture stole more than burglars. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/23/cops-took-more-stuff-from-people-than-burglars-did-last-year/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/23/cops-...
- adventured 5y ago
  An estimated $68.8 billion over 20 years approximately, between state and federal authorities. The Institute for Justice has published a couple of their Policing for Profit profiles (that attempts to keep track of and update on civil asset forfeiture figures and progress/regression), with the most recent in 2020. California is averaging $25m per year the past 17 years; Illinois is averaging $33m per year; Texas is averaging $18m per year; Florida is averaging $49m per year. Some of the best states are Idaho, Montana, Wisconsin, New Mexico, Maine, New Hampshire, Virginia, Colorado, West Virginia, Iowa, Wyoming, Hawaii, Oregon, Connecticut and Missouri. Here's an infographic by the Institute for Justice for 2018, sizing the states by their civil asset forfeiture thefts (note, the color of the box doesn't coordinate to the scale of theft, that coordinates to state law grades): https://i.imgur.com/sqg4FiC.jpg https://i.imgur.com/sqg4FiC.jpg It's too bad these scumbags aren't targeting Michael Dell ($50b), Jim Walton ($65b) or MacKenzie Scott ($61b) with civil asset forfeiture. Sorry MacKenzie, that Amazon stock no longer belongs to you, it has been 'impounded' by the Washington State Police. It's being held as, uhm, evidence that you may have had a role in the operation of a massive counterfeit goods ring. Congress or the Supreme Court might finally get around to stopping the practice (or maybe they'd just place a ceiling on how much you can steal from one person).
  - stevespang 5y ago
    . . ."you may have had a role in the operation of a massive counterfeit goods ring" - - - only that the wealthy folks you mentioned have access to any dozens of high profile lawyers which would cost them less than 1/100th of 1% of their assets. This is all about targeting the middle and poor class - - - whom in too many cases cannot afford to hire decent attorneys just to try to get back what was stolen from them, especially if the legal cost it is equal to or less than the amount stolen. So called "Justice for All" was never "EQUAL Justice for All" - - even though it's a hideous mockery that "Equal Justice for All" is on the side of the US Supreme Court Building.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  So what are the odds that it happens to a given American or tourist? Ideally we could accept that this (or any other given topic) is bad without feeling the need to exaggerate its significance to ourselves. This is what I miss the most about the pre-Twitter days. Bring on the downvotes.
  - me_me_me 5y ago
    if you are tourist you might as well paint a bullseye on your car. How a tourist is going to fight in a foreign country against police of that country?
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      This is pretty easily testable. If tourists have “a bullseye” on them, then surely we would expect a significant share of tourists have experienced CF—say 25%. So where is the evidence that a quarter of tourists to the US have said experience?
- xyzzyz 5y ago
  Not all civil forfeiture is theft. Too much of it is, to be sure, but it is still mostly used to forfeit proceedings of crime.
  - loeg 5y ago
    It’s all theft. Restitution and fines can be assessed without guilty-until-proven-innocent forfeiture.
  - betwixthewires 5y ago
    If a person committed a crime and you can prove it, charge them with the crime then take whatever assets you can prove were gained from criminal activity. There is no merit in civil asset forfeiture whatsoever, regardless if it is done to criminals or everyone else.
veidr 5y ago
it is absolutely not an aberration, it is the status quo, it happens to thousands of people a year, it's happened on camera during many episodes of C.O.P.S. (an old popular TV show where camera crews follow police officers around doing their police job), and it mostly happens to non white people (of course) but it also happens to white male citizens, too — some of whom happen to be software engineers going to buy a used car off craigslist or some shit, who have posted to this very website (can't find the link now, as my kids are rioting, but it's there)
- dnautics 5y ago
  I think gp means by aberration, "it's not something that most people have to worry about". Which is true. If even 10% of Americans had to deal with this it would become illegal. The police prey on those they think they can get away with, and those who have a lot of assets to forfeit (but not too much). They are often right.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    Yes, this is correct, and I can’t imagine any other definition of the word. Accepting the claim that this happens to thousands every year, that still puts us in “odds of being struck by lightning” territory. It’s still wrong, the laws should be changed, but no one should fear coming to the US on account of it.
  - michaelt 5y ago
    What makes you think you and I aren't the kind of people the police can get away with preying on?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - dnautics 5y ago
      Even if you fit the skin color type, AND the car type AND the speeding profile, you'd probably STILL have to make multiple trips driving up and down states where your license plate doesn't match to bring the likelihood up above "aberrant"... You would be driving so much you wouldn't have time to read and comment hn. (I just drove across four states and there was no time for hn, and I'm an addict).
a3n 5y ago
No, it's not an aberration. Cops in various departments around the country take classes to do this most effectively. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=asset+forfeiture+classes&t=lm&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=asset+forfeiture+classes&t=lm&ia=w...
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  That doesn’t refute my “aberration” claim. If you can demonstrate that even 1% of citizens or tourists have been subjected to civil forfeiture then I’ll withdraw my claim. But I’m pretty sure CF is on the order of “struck by lightning”. Of course, the reading comprehension of people in this thread has been aggressively low, so I will repeat that none of this vindicates CF.