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ProtonMail logged IP address of French activist after order by Swiss authorities
- zihotki 5y agoMore discussion in this earlier thread - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28427259 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28427259
- baybal2 5y agoWho is the man arrested? Does anybody know? Full name?
- thomasol 5y agoA French protester. From a similar group to Occupy. https://mexicanapost.com/2021/09/06/protonmail-logged-ip-address-of-french-activist-after-order-by-swiss-authorities-techcrunch/ https://mexicanapost.com/2021/09/06/protonmail-logged-ip-add...
- commoner 5y agoThat article is the TechCrunch article with a bunch of words swapped out for synonyms to the point that it doesn't even make sense. First sentence from TechCrunch: > ProtonMail, a hosted email service with a focus on end-to-end encrypted communications, has been facing criticism after a police report showed that French authorities managed to obtain the IP address of a French activist who was using the online service. First sentence from Mexicana Post: > ProtonMail, a hosted email provider with a target on finish-to-stop encrypted communications, has been going through criticism just after a police report confirmed that French authorities managed to get hold of the IP tackle of a French activist who was using the on the web assistance.
- thomasol 5y agoGood to know. I was sent the link earlier by a contact. I will block him now.
- mariopt 5y agoOh well, Proton just became useless.
- shapefrog 5y agoBack to gmail then?
- mariopt 5y agoIf expressing a political opinion is all that takes, I don't see any difference between using Proton and Gmail. Of course, they only logged it after the request but they did it. You would be much better off by using a non-European/USA/Western provider.
- damtr 5y agoOh really? are u playing stupid or what? there's a massive alternative of protonmail just to know, I2P is example.
- ithkuil 5y ago> Under current Swiss law, email and VPN are treated differently, and ProtonVPN cannot be compelled to log user data. > Under no circumstances can our encryption be bypassed, meaning emails, attachments, calendars, files, etc. cannot be compromised by legal orders. > [..] We will also clarify that the use of our onion site (details below) is highly recommended for users who want anonymity Source: https://protonmail.com/blog/climate-activist-arrest/ https://protonmail.com/blog/climate-activist-arrest/ So I guess you should be using Tor or protonVPN if you don't want to hide your access logs from swiss authorities. They could have done a better job at explaining the threat model to the wider public, but I wouldn't say they are useless. I think it's advisable to not have a knee jerk reaction. EDIT: link to their published threat model: https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-threat-model/ https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-threat-model/
- Shacklz 5y agoWhile the incident is really a bit worrying, I'm personally not paying PM to protect me from state-agents - I'm paying them to protect me from Joe working in marketing. If a state agent wants my data and brings the necessary paperwork to get it - I'm not expecting anyone to put up a hopeless fight for me, or at least not for the 100 bucks or so that I'm paying yearly for PM. I just expect them to not sell out my data altogether, which PM doesn't seem to be doing, and this is all (or at least, most) that I care about.
- animanoir 5y agoWhat an amazing way to ruin your reputation. Incredibly sad. I'll stop using ProtonMail now.
- qayxc 5y agoWhat's sad about following local law? It's right there in the first paragraph: they didn't cooperate with French authorities, but were ordered by Swiss police to assist.
- southerntofu 5y agoWhat about refusing to submit to unfair laws (civil disobedience)? Tracking down activists can hardly ever be justified.
- vnchr 5y agoThen there’d be no ProtonMail. Just a gesture that would be forgotten in the near future.
- southerntofu 5y agoInteresting comment to dissect. First, assuming that refusing to comply with counter-insurgency enforcement would lead to closing down the service: to my knowledge this can only result in machines seized (riseup.net seizure) or fines for the hosting provider (altern.org), not to the service actually closing down and the admins being jailed (unless they are found to be part of a broader criminal conspiracy, which is definitely not the case of Protonmail). As long as you have backups and you're not rich, all in all there's nothing to be afraid of. Of course litigation is stressful, but nobody's going to physically torture you for that in the Global North. Second, assuming that refusing to collaborate with authorities will necessarily escalate to hardware seizure and litigation. There's a long way to go for that, and many ways an investigation can be closed (succesfully or not) without sysadmin collaboration. Third, assuming that going on a political trial to defend activists will necessarily result in being condemned. A political trial, along with a political (not legal) defense can go many ways, and it's very often that refusing to comply with such obvious abuses of power (eg. using Europol to track down anti-gentrification activists) will result in complete acquittal. Only when you play by the rules of an unfair system, you're sure to loose at every turn.
- kylehotchkiss 5y ago"Per ProtonMail’s privacy policy, the information it can provide on a user account in response to a valid request under Swiss law may include account information provided by the user ... and unencrypted messages sent from external providers to ProtonMail" Well that's a bummer. I went with ProtonMail because I didn't want piles of card usage notifications and other financially related emails being available in bulk to anybody, but seems like that's not part of Proton's offering. As an aside, I wish more email notifications allowed GPG encryption so there's an actual barrier to privacy in the system.
- scyzoryk_xyz 5y agoFirst PIA, now Proton. Any word here on an alternative?
- Forbo 5y agoTor, I2P.
- praveenperera 5y agoDo you have a link to the PIA story?
- scyzoryk_xyz 5y agoI don’t actually, it was some shenanigans with some holding company buying them out and promising they would stay neutral ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- 0-_-0 5y agoI'm surprised how so many people are easily captured by internet outrage
- scyzoryk_xyz 5y agoYeah maybe you’re right on this one
- worewood 5y agoChain VPNs on different jurisdictions. Include a VPS paid with bitcoin as part of the chain. Access it from cafe or airport wifi.
- barrucadu 5y agoFor those criticising ProtonMail, what else could they have done? When the law for the country the company is based in says they must do a thing, they can't just say "no". It's unfortunate that it happened, but the fact that this could happen shouldn't come as a surprise.
- baybal2 5y ago> For those criticising ProtonMail, what else could they have done? Moving to some Central African, or Central Asian nation, and full-handedly buying the government?
- yaris 5y agoOnly for US buying that same government in their turn, plus a couple neighbour governments to ensure peopleware excess in case of war?
- baybal2 5y agoThere been a number of US laws prohibiting US government from "purchasing" corrupt regimes... Egypt is one of biggest US military aid recipients.
- ezoe 5y agoShut down(sabotage) the entire service immediately. No working service, no new log. They still can implement IP logging to comply with the government, but alas, service is not working right now. At least, Lavabit did that when they were demanded by US government for the TLS private key to spy on Edward Snowden. Destroy the server equipment, then seek political asylum to the Non-EU countries. Their selling point is they never log IP address. Fulfill that promise or they lose the trust. They chose break the promise. The only unique selling point they have compared to the competitors.
- yaris 5y agoIf they were shutting down their service every time police requests logs then their servers wouldn't have time to even boot properly. In their "clarification" they claim they received 700 orders in 2020. It is ~2 orders/day.
- yaris 5y agoAll those who stop using ProtonMail after this incident - could you please describe what PM should've done differently? From what I know they received a valid/legal request from authorities in Switzerland. Since they operate under swiss jurisdiction - they had only two options: comply or cease to exist. I doubt anyone would be happier if _all_ PM equipment got seized. So it seems that they should've placed themselves (servers _and_ personnel) outside EU. Also outside USA, UK, Australia, Canada, India, Russia, China, Latin America, Saudi Arabia... There are not so many countries left. And operating in "dark web" is not helping really - physical HW has to be operated by physical people, both of which can be found by state authorities.
- southerntofu 5y agoRefuse to comply with unfair laws? That's precisely what those activists that Protonmail ratted on were doing, and that's precisely what Protonmail should have done. It's funny how some fancy cryptographers from their ivory towers will stand for privacy rights... as long as they don't actually take any risks for themselves. Unlike the actual activists who were house searched and arrested and now risk jail time for an arguably-noble cause, it's not like security researchers actually risk anything beyond a few fines (which they could crowdfund for) if they don't comply with law enforcement.
- YorickPeterse 5y ago> Refuse to comply with unfair laws? And do what exactly, go to prison? Expecting that is unreasonable at best.
- southerntofu 5y agoWhen was the last time you heard of sysadmins ending up in prison, apart from obvious criminal conspiracies like Silk Road? see my other comment in this thread for more detail on how that's a misinformed argument: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28434187 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28434187
- r721 5y agoProtonMail's blog post: https://protonmail.com/blog/climate-activist-arrest/ https://protonmail.com/blog/climate-activist-arrest/
- ds 5y agoFrom their blog post: "Under no circumstances can our encryption be bypassed, meaning emails, attachments, calendars, files, etc. cannot be compromised by legal orders." I hate this type of grandstanding. If the swiss authorities make a legal order demanding that protonmail include a rogue JS file when a specific IP address requests their inbox, they will have to do it. It reminds me of XKCD #538, All this advanced tech to make it so everyone trusts their email is encrypted no-matter-what and it all falls apart with one subpoena. Oh, and apparently (According to this blog post) they 'wouldnt be able to fight or appeal' that type of order either. This is basically how PRISM was implemented back in the day, The NSA mandated various providers comply with code changes.
- istingray 5y agoSame here. The fact that this is the #1 item on their blog post gives me concern as a paying customer. They cannot and should not guarantee this. It is a losing strategy. They must educate customers on the limits of Protonmail. Or at least, whoever takes their place will. Protonmail looks DOA at this point.
- sluggosaurus 5y ago> If the swiss authorities make a legal order demanding that protonmail include a rogue JS file when a specific IP address requests their inbox, they will have to do it. Didn't Apple successfully resist doing similar when the FBI asked Apple to crack into the San Bernadino terrorists' phones by pushing special code just to those phones? Hypothetically, would Swiss law have allowed Swiss-FBI to compel Swiss-Apple to comply with this demand?
- protonmail 5y agoThis is not true however, as under Swiss law, Swiss authorities don't have the legal power to issue such an order. Swiss law is very clear on this point.
- asien 5y agoWhat could have they done ? Im not trying to say that what happened isn’t so bad , I just don’t see how with today international justice cooperation someone could truly expect « privacy ». Wether this is a from a service provider or directly from your ISP, it’s not possible to get privacy unless your rely on private peer to peer network.
- southerntofu 5y agoThey could have refused to comply with an unfair request granted through back channels via the french political police and a landowner's mafia. Go to court as a host, let the prosecutor present "proofs" that this person deserves to be prosecuted under international law, which they don't have because this is a clear case of political repression. Let the judge laugh at the ridicule of the case, or worst case scenario comply with the judge's order, which would hopefully give enough time to the targeted person to know they're a target by now and stop using Protonmail altogether (or do it via tor). That's what a responsible host does. I don't have the same standard for smaller, non-profit hosts. But for a big organization with vast sums of money like Protonmail i would expect no less. What's next, cooperating with chinese political police?
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago> refused to comply with an unfair request granted through back channels via the french political police Your solution to a lawful request is covert backchanneling to the police of a foreign nation?
- southerntofu 5y agoNo, i meant that's how the request was granted in the first place.
- windthrown 5y agoThe "request" came in the form of a legally binding order from the Swiss Federal Department of Justice. They have stated that there was not a legal possiblity to challenge in this case after the Swiss DOJ made their determination. You suggest "go to court" but there was apparently not a means to do so. Judges aren't private arbiters and don't hear random cases at the request of companies
- tjpnz 5y agoIf you know you're under investigation you probably should be using Tor or at the very least a VPN.
- istingray 5y agoProton's homepage needs to say this. They must educate their users to live in the future. Attackers are always getting better. Why does Protonmail seem stuck in 2017 in their use of Tor?
- merwanedr 5y agoThey had to comply, and that's a downside of centralization. Use PGP and Tor if you want true privacy.
- masklinn 5y ago> Use PGP and Tor if you want true privacy. Don't use email for starters, really.
- ncphil 5y agoOr just use email for stuff that isn't sensitive. "Let's meet at my house" to your brother on where to celebrate your kid's high school graduation, versus to local activists on where to form up before going over to an antiwar protest.
- 333d34 5y agoHi, I would just like to add to this, I have been under a police investigation for some time, and although they are wasting their time. I do take every precaution to preserve my privacy. Which just seems to make them more angry. I have a proton main account, and and cant be specific. But I can say with a degree of certainty that not only can the police gain access to the contents of your proton main account with little effort, they also have the ability to remove login instances from history. As I saw a IP login from a certain location, when I got back from work that instance of the successful login was missing. I know what that morning I entered the IP into a IP lookup website, I even saw what area it come from. I hope this helps people make a informed decision about using proton mail. Because if the police have got it in for you, they will just lie and make up reasons and make the Swiss police feel bad for not acting or helping.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- istingray 5y agoDisclaimer: Paying Protonmail customer Their homepage says "By default, we do not keep any IP logs" In 2021, any soft language like this should be a red flag for anyone who is against surveillance. Maybe in 2018 it was good enough. But in 2021 it's not. Come on, Protonmail, you're supposed to be leading the way -- don't make me figure it out myself. Replace immediately with "By default we don't log IP, but may be required to by local law enforcement. We recommend everyone connect through Protonmail through Tor. This month, 60% of our users connected through Tor".
- drummer 5y agoOr, just disable all kinds of access that compromises privacy. So for example, only allow connections through tor. Dont expect users to be educated. Build a product that makes it extremely hard to do the wrong thing. So privacy and security by default.
- istingray 5y agoYes! Finally someone who gets it. Looking for Tor-first paid services to start up. At the end of the day, what Protonmail does just doesn't seem hard. I paid for their service with the mindset that it was temporary to invite better vendors to come along. Looking forward to what's next.
- legrande 5y ago> Their homepage says "By default, we do not keep any IP logs" To have a true zero knowledge email service it should not connect to the public facing Internet at all. It needs to reside in a darknet exclusively for IPs Not to be public knowledge.
- KingMachiavelli 5y agoFrom ProtonMail: > The Internet is generally not anonymous, and if you are breaking Swiss law, a law-abiding company such as ProtonMail can be legally compelled to log your IP address. Does this mean that IP addresses are not logged by default (assuming the account settings are also set to not log IP addresses - it can be enabled) but are logged only one a specific account after a LE request? Does this mean they could add a per-account warrant canary?
- nolok 5y agoYou do not need a per user warrant canary. You've got better. Under Swiss law they are obligated to warn you when your data was requested.
- edwnj 5y agoTor should've have been the default and definitely no ip logs. I understand its not that simple, this probably hurts UX and increases costs but the whole point of the product is privacy. There are plenty of gmail alternatives with cool features out there, people don't use pm just because its cool. I'm a paying user, I really like the product and I understand you guys are being held to very high standard but we need you to live up to your promise of privacy more than ever.