12 ms·

PaperTerm Concept, An e-paper remote terminal device

172 points by phil294 5y ago

phil294 5y ago
This seens to be an unpublished, unfinished, unindexed document about a nonexisting product whose project status I am very confused about, yet the concept is absolutely intriguing.
- elias94 5y ago
  The concept is beautiful. I would use it as a main machine. The idea has already been approached, but the realization of a specific machine for that has never been tried. Do you know the project author? ex: https://github.com/olup/kobowriter https://github.com/olup/kobowriter
  - torgoguys 5y ago
    I'm the author. I didn't find that this hit HN until I woke up this morning and saw it here so missed out on replying to comments until now.
- rejectedandsad 5y ago
  Concept is very cool. The PineNote seems to nail some of it, though I'm not sure about the battery life (definitely not the battery type). If the PineNote could output its desktop when docked it would be a very interesting product I'd happily purchase.
- fxtentacle 5y ago
  I have experience with driver circuitry for waveshare e-ink displays and ARM H7 which has USB2 and Wifi. It shouldn't be too difficult to build a small device which is powered by an USB power bank, receives from a USB keyboard and communicates with a USB LTE stick. So I'm pretty sure that someone has already designed something similar as open hardware that you could fork and customize. I'd start with Googling "kicad eink arm". From memory, the Watchy eink watch with esp32 comes to mind. And I think there are arduino epaper driver boards on Amazon, too.
- em500 5y ago
  The earliest generation Kindles had keyboards and various ways to run Linux. I think they tick about every box in this concept, except for the "Great keyboard. Terminal mouse support": the keyboards sucked for typing more than a few minutes. I realise that this is a pretty important "except" if you want to use a terminal, but at least they were actual mass market products.
- torgoguys 5y ago
  Yes, you hit the nail on the head! This was my (private :-) notes-to-self for the project that will be launching as a public project soon. If you want to help, email me (address is in my profile!)!
FullyFunctional 5y ago
I’ve chasing this dragon for years for the purpose of working outside; first trying to hack a kindle paper white, then using a Dasung monitor, then hacking a reMarkable 2. All were disappointing for a reason or another but I’m ready to try again with the PineNote. 4th time’s the charm, right?
- pvg 5y ago
  What were some of the reasons for disappointment?
- wellthisisgreat 5y ago
  What was wrong with Remarkable2?
  - FullyFunctional 5y ago
    reMarkable 2 is awesome for it’s purpose, but trying to hack it into a terminal was too finicky and I bailed (same but worse dor the paperwhite). It still works great as a notepad and pdf reader, but 10.3” is the bare minimal practical size IMO. The Dasung proved to be super finicky for it’s _intended_ purpose and generally awkward as a monitor. I can’t recommend it.
  - holsta 5y ago
    I have a Remarkable 2 -- it doesn't have a good SSH client nor supports an external keyboard, as far as I know.
    - jbverschoor 5y ago
      Sounds like an easy 'dev mode' to add, and capture a large market of developers. For years I've been looking into eink for development etc.
      - pjerem 5y ago
        Remarkable is actually very open. Getting root access is as easy as going to the bottom of the About page to get the device's ip and its root password for SSH access. But still, the hacking scene is far from big. There is no SDK. You can do things with QT but for a lot of use cases, you have to work directly with the screen capacities. e-ink screens are not good old framebuffer screens. If you want to have nice performance (like, instant note taking), you have to actually "draw" things on it. You can draw things relatively fast on an e-ink device. But you can not draw a lot of things at the same time. That's why you have to wait maybe a full second between two pages of your book, but you can also have a blazing fast writing experience. So the display paradigm is totally different compared to a classic screen and you can't just port existing apps. Well, you can, but it'll be without the "smart refresh" part. So it will be slow. If you want something usable, you have to think what and when to draw things on the screen. Hence, few usefull apps exists on remarkable, because you have to build them from zero, with no real documentation, and to target a niche.
japanuspus 5y ago
Related: Discussion yesterday on "E-Ink Typewriter": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28426741 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28426741
Yaggo 5y ago
Is the refresh time of e-ink display suitable for convenient terminal use? (I just skimmed the article.) When reading an e-book, the page is typically refreshed 1-2 times per minute, while the typical CLI use is more fast-paced, not to mention TUI programs.
- Y_Y 5y ago
  Yes, if you're only making small updates and not dumping tons of lines all the time the even an old e-ink display is plenty fast. It works the same way when you're menuing on an e-reader.
- BiteCode_dev 5y ago
  The modern ones are quite impressive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTok6imfgoM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTok6imfgoM Still very expensive, but with tech it's just a matter of years
- avnigo 5y ago
  From the demos I've seen of other e-ink tablet devices like the Max Lumi, it seems like it can handle handwriting pretty smoothly [0]. So it could probably handle typical CLI use too, but higher refresh rates would of course mean higher battery usage. I think e-ink displays can handle local refresh zones, so it doesn't necessarily mean that it would have to refresh the whole screen. However, without pagination, a lot of our computer usage includes scrolling, and I would imagine that's more power intensive, and can maybe hit the refresh rate limits of e-ink displays. I guess that would be akin to a lot of phones now letting you pick a fixed or variable refresh rate depending on the experience and battery life you want to get out of the device. [0]: https://youtu.be/B8X7JPdgsh0?t=788 https://youtu.be/B8X7JPdgsh0?t=788
thomasfl 5y ago
I have been craving an e-ink laptop with a low voltage RISC processor for twenty years. It is impossible to open a normal laptop at night, after the kids have gone to bed, without becoming more awake than after a double espresso. I can't stare into a bright back lit screen at night. It often ends up with me sitting way to late up at night. At daytime, the often ridiculously bright back lit screen makes me unfocused and almost hypnotized.
- codetrotter 5y ago
  If I could afford it I would buy an Onyx BOOX Max Lumi https://onyxboox.com/boox_maxlumi https://onyxboox.com/boox_maxlumi It can be used as an external monitor for your laptop or desktop via HDMI port according to https://onyxboox.com/files/manuals/BOOX_MaxLumi_User_Manual.pdf https://onyxboox.com/files/manuals/BOOX_MaxLumi_User_Manual.... Screen Size 13.3 inch Resolution 2200*1650 Is it actually good enough to do real work on? I don't know, but I would be willing to try. Certainly looks interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_WjTgmwMRk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_WjTgmwMRk Also worth noting though, from the manual linked above: "In the state of secondary monitor, the device is only user for monitor reading. Touch for operation do not work in this state."
  - maaneeack 5y ago
    have you seen the pinenote annoucement? https://www.pine64.org/2021/08/15/introducing-the-pinenote/ https://www.pine64.org/2021/08/15/introducing-the-pinenote/
    - codetrotter 5y ago
      Does it support HDMI in? Couldn’t find a mention about it immediately.
      - maaneeack 5y ago
        Not that I can see, here's the wiki: https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PineNote https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PineNote, the discord has a lot of info as well (that's where I saw it)
torgoguys 5y ago
Oh, hi all! I didn't my project to show up here today! This was just my private notes-to-self I'm using to organize a group to create this thing. These notes haven't been cleaned up to be public yet (near the end it gets particularly messy and the memory map has changed from the state shown on this page), but oh well, it's been found! I will answer any questions you may have. And if you want to help make this, my email address is in my profile. Programmers, electrical engineers, testers, documentation... whatever skills you have, I'm sure you can help!
- pietervdvn 5y ago
  There is also this project, might be interesting to get in touch: https://hackaday.io/project/179890-india-navi https://hackaday.io/project/179890-india-navi
  - torgoguys 5y ago
    For sure! Thank you for the pointer to it.
- the_biot 5y ago
  I realize this might simply put me into the "not target demographic" group, but what makes this so useful as a terminal, that a laptop won't do? I could understand the no-distraction writing i.e. word processor use-case that some people think E-Ink would be good for, but that doesn't appear in your list of possible applications either.
  - torgoguys 5y ago
    Use as a distraction-free word processor is listed as a use-case if you read far enough. (As mentioned, the notes are a bit of a mess and weren't cleaned up for public consumption.) But, yes, a laptop can do pretty much everything Paperterm can do. A laptop can do everything a Kindle can do. A laptop can do a huge percent of what your phone can do. If the advantages of this niche device (e.g., sunlight-readable display with no backlight/blue-light, it's insane battery life, a no-compromise keyboard, and it's always-ready-"never-off" state) doesn't appeal to you, then you're right, you're probably just not in the target demographic. Those in the target market find a lot to love in such specs. This is explicitly a niche product, not trying to be everything for everyone (which is closer to what a laptop does). EDIT: if you have a look at the (also not ready for announcement) root of the domain, you'll see a brief pitch: http://www.paperterm.org/ http://www.paperterm.org/ This page also has notes-to-self in brackets, and I'm not in a spot where I can fix it right now, so ignore that.
Ideabile 5y ago
I leave a picture of my setup that I previously posted in Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/o16nfa/pretty_please_of_seeing_emacs_running_on_my/ https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/o16nfa/pretty_please... This is a BOOX Note Air, with Termux + Mosh + TMUX and my editor of choice Emacs DOOM. I'm pretty happy of this setup. I went in holiday and I manage to use my editor to do some coding. The only side effect is that it requires internet for extra processing power, although you could still run all locally depending on your requirements.
- nudpiedo 5y ago
  I also have a BOOX note Air, and I am very happy with it. I even installed python and Jupyter LOCALLY. I had no problems processing a few millions of primes in milliseconds. However, the display is not good enough to program as growing code often requieres to fast refresh the screen while browsing code or following stacktraces, which is quite uncomfortable. Also the lack of syntax highlight but I guess some people could get used to those.
- barrenko 5y ago
  Hi, if I can ask, what is that keyboard? My local electronics chain had it listed as "Raspberry keyboard" but it's no longer available and I've been looking for it for months.
  - Ideabile 5y ago
    The keyboard is a Dell K07M, but beside the cute form factor I will NOT recommend buying it. Maybe mine is damage, but I got a lot of ghosting in my key pressing. I’m looking to replace it, maybe with a K3.
  - maicro 5y ago
    Dell logo in the top left corner, bluetooth indicator in the top right; nothing on the Dell website that matches it, but on Amazon and Newegg "Dell KW14M01" looks very similar (though neither have the logo top left, so could be different minor version or not actually Dell...).
- 5y ago
borzunov 5y ago
Years ago, I've made a program turning Pocketbook e-ink readers into computer monitors with some extra features: https://github.com/borzunov/remoteink https://github.com/borzunov/remoteink The update speed is quite good (comfortable for writing texts and browsing most websites) even when connecting via Wi-Fi.
type0 5y ago
In similar vein there's also Clockwork Pi DevTerm, I wish it would use e-ink display instead https://www.clockworkpi.com/devterm https://www.clockworkpi.com/devterm
James-Livesey 5y ago
Neat! I've been thinking of building something similar to this — a portable Linux machine that has an eInk display and little QWERTY keyboard, in a size that's a just a bit bigger than a smartphone. I've had a spare eInk display laying around for some time now, and it's about ~~5"~~ 3.7" in size, I think. I managed to get it working with a Pi Zero, and wrote a small Python script which captures the desktop, and then compares it to the previous capture, and then updates the bounds of where the capture is different. Somewhat slow with a Pi Zero, but still somewhat usable. I really need to look into the possibility of performing partial refreshes on the display to save it from having to invert the screen every time there is a change. I might try and use a Pi 4/ Pi CM4 to drive the whole thing — I believe the bottleneck mainly lies in sending the data over to the display, which the Pi Zero is unfortunately quite slow at doing. Plus, it would potentially be a bit more powerful/useful with the newer processor found on the Pi 4!
- torgoguys 5y ago
  Sounds like a neat project. Yes, partial refreshes help a lot, lot, lot! Battery life might end up becoming a problem if you intend for it to run on batteries. Compared to PaperTerm or smartphones, a Pi uses a lot of juice, but it is great for proof-of-concept!
  - James-Livesey 5y ago
    Thanks! As you say, the Pi does chew up quite a bit of the battery life, but I hope that usage should last for at least a day or two. I plan to use a 3,000 mAh battery with the thing, which seems to be quite a lot — my Pixel 4 has 2,800 mAh _and_ that doesn't even have an eInk display! For the purposes of my project, I'm not really focused on trying to make the device extremely thin either. Something relatively chunky (like 1-1.5 cm) is sometimes quite nice and welcoming imo. I wrote up my own notes-to-self much like the author of the PaperTerm did, which provides a brief overview of my general ideas: https://github.com/inkySystems/resources https://github.com/inkySystems/resources It's a tiny bit outdated since it has no mention of my idea of using a Pi CM4. I haven't got many publicly-available info about what I've done so far with my board (seeing that it's a side-side-project of mine or something to that effect...) but it's something I'm experimenting with whenever I've got time on my hands!
pickledish 5y ago
Ha, this looks great, the list of goals seems really similar to a list I came up with a couple years ago for what I’d consider optimal for a writing device, too: http://www.willett.io/posts/device/ http://www.willett.io/posts/device/ So, I’m of course in total agreement, and interested! Is there any place we can sign up for some kind of mailing list?
- torgoguys 5y ago
  Sure, email me and I will send you updates. My email is in my profile.
JasonFruit 5y ago
I made something similar to this several years ago, and it was pretty usable considering that the software was thrown together in Python and the display I had did not support partial refresh. I got it so I could run terminal applications nicely, and even run X applications poorly. Then my little girl cut the pretty colored wires with scissors, and I didn't have the heart to do the hardware work over again. It wa a nice toy that might have become a good tool over time. Good luck! Here's my lousy code: https://github.com/ThePaperTop https://github.com/ThePaperTop
rbanffy 5y ago
> Also for simplicity of P0, the exact font used is the 14-line EGA font with the last line duplicated to the 15th-line. Nooooooooo! It's so horrible. There are a multitude of similarly sized bitmap fonts that bring back much nicer memories. IBM DOS ISO8 and ISO9, for instance: https://int10h.org/oldschool-pc-fonts/fontlist/font?ibm_dos_iso8#- https://int10h.org/oldschool-pc-fonts/fontlist/font?ibm_dos_... https://int10h.org/oldschool-pc-fonts/fontlist/font?ibm_dos_iso9#- https://int10h.org/oldschool-pc-fonts/fontlist/font?ibm_dos_... The Siemens PC-D https://int10h.org/oldschool-pc-fonts/fontlist/font?siemens_pc-d#- https://int10h.org/oldschool-pc-fonts/fontlist/font?siemens_... NEC APC3 8x16 https://int10h.org/oldschool-pc-fonts/fontlist/font?nec_apc3_8x16#- https://int10h.org/oldschool-pc-fonts/fontlist/font?nec_apc3... Cordata PPC-400 (one of my all-time favorites) https://int10h.org/oldschool-pc-fonts/fontlist/font?cordata_ppc-400#- https://int10h.org/oldschool-pc-fonts/fontlist/font?cordata_... Missing from this website is the Epson QX-10 and QX-16: https://i.imgur.com/WDrTBpC.png https://i.imgur.com/WDrTBpC.png Ping me if you want help with these.
- torgoguys 5y ago
  Yeah, I hear ya! It's just temporary. :-) EDIT: I see you added more detail. Yes, I will definitely ping you. Thanks!
tossaway9000 5y ago
I will happily crowdfund this, and I don't crowdfund anything...
nixpulvis 5y ago
For PF, I recommend "disconnected by default" I've been using my laptop like this for a while now and the peace of mind is easily worth the one command I need to run to connect each time. Especially on a distraction free device where I wouldn't expect a lot of notifications and synchronizations.
- torgoguys 5y ago
  This could only happen if we've got some local apps beyond the main (terminal) app. PF-timeframe, as you say. I will write the idea down so it doesn't get lost. It probably makes sense as a toggle, perhaps selected when initially setting up/getting a software tour of the device, depending on who is using the system. Writers for example, would want it, sysadmins, not so much.
  - nixpulvis 5y ago
    I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding you but, why are local apps a prerequisite for controlled networking? Or is that just how you want to build it out? To be clear, all I'm suggesting is executing a command like `network connect <SSID>` instead of automatically connecting to saved networks. Maybe I'm just not sold on the concept of a truly remote terminal (like the real old terminals). Why should I have to carry around two devices when Linux could run on this device itself? Perhaps it's a lot more work? but there have been some efforts made on this already. I would like to casually launch vim and start writing, without worrying about connectivity. As an aside, also consider looking at how the reMarkable tablet implements ether/IP over USB, that has been working pretty well for me too, though I really wish it would broadcast an mDNS entry over WiFi as well.
    - torgoguys 5y ago
      Ah, I misunderstood you. Without the local apps, unless you are connected to a network, there is literally nothing to do with this device. That's because it is more-or-less a terminal only (excluding the few PF local apps). There are no notifications to speak of. A Linux OS based device can't meet the goals of the device from a couple of standpoints (power, availability, and the limited RAM/resources on the microcontroller pop to mind right away). Think of this as an instant on appliance. You turn on your old Commodore 64 and you are instantly able to type. I hear ya, when it comes to "just wanting to be able to open the thing and start typing into vim (or whatever)". We're working on sanding down those edges in a couple of ways--1) eventually, we'd like to point people to a very cheap, simple cloud linux deployment if they don't want to setup their own, with lots of conveniences. 2) regarding actually getting a network connection since we're talking terminal-only the bandwidth requirements are tiny; because of that, it looks like we're going to want to add cell network connectivity. This is early-stages in thinking this through, but there are plans in the $40 - $60 range for an ENTIRE YEAR that would give you unlimited bandwidth that is plenty fast for terminal purposes (128kbps after using a limited amount of faster 4G bandwidth). I will take a look at the reMarkable ether over USB. Thanks for pointing it out. It'll be a while before we've got a full USB stack working though. Remember, the software footprint for this device is tiny by design.
sirkiller 5y ago
Might be a possibility to incorporate with this project? Pumpkin OS https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28466858 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28466858

172 points by phil294 5y ago

This seens to be an unpublished, unfinished, unindexed document about a nonexisting product whose project status I am very confused about, yet the concept is absolutely intriguing.

elias94 5y ago
The concept is beautiful. I would use it as a main machine. The idea has already been approached, but the realization of a specific machine for that has never been tried. Do you know the project author? ex: https://github.com/olup/kobowriter https://github.com/olup/kobowriter
- torgoguys 5y ago
  I'm the author. I didn't find that this hit HN until I woke up this morning and saw it here so missed out on replying to comments until now.
rejectedandsad 5y ago
Concept is very cool. The PineNote seems to nail some of it, though I'm not sure about the battery life (definitely not the battery type). If the PineNote could output its desktop when docked it would be a very interesting product I'd happily purchase.
fxtentacle 5y ago
I have experience with driver circuitry for waveshare e-ink displays and ARM H7 which has USB2 and Wifi. It shouldn't be too difficult to build a small device which is powered by an USB power bank, receives from a USB keyboard and communicates with a USB LTE stick. So I'm pretty sure that someone has already designed something similar as open hardware that you could fork and customize. I'd start with Googling "kicad eink arm". From memory, the Watchy eink watch with esp32 comes to mind. And I think there are arduino epaper driver boards on Amazon, too.
em500 5y ago
The earliest generation Kindles had keyboards and various ways to run Linux. I think they tick about every box in this concept, except for the "Great keyboard. Terminal mouse support": the keyboards sucked for typing more than a few minutes. I realise that this is a pretty important "except" if you want to use a terminal, but at least they were actual mass market products.
torgoguys 5y ago
Yes, you hit the nail on the head! This was my (private :-) notes-to-self for the project that will be launching as a public project soon. If you want to help, email me (address is in my profile!)!

FullyFunctional 5y ago

I’ve chasing this dragon for years for the purpose of working outside; first trying to hack a kindle paper white, then using a Dasung monitor, then hacking a reMarkable 2. All were disappointing for a reason or another but I’m ready to try again with the PineNote. 4th time’s the charm, right?

pvg 5y ago
What were some of the reasons for disappointment?
wellthisisgreat 5y ago
What was wrong with Remarkable2?
- FullyFunctional 5y ago
  reMarkable 2 is awesome for it’s purpose, but trying to hack it into a terminal was too finicky and I bailed (same but worse dor the paperwhite). It still works great as a notepad and pdf reader, but 10.3” is the bare minimal practical size IMO. The Dasung proved to be super finicky for it’s _intended_ purpose and generally awkward as a monitor. I can’t recommend it.
- holsta 5y ago
  I have a Remarkable 2 -- it doesn't have a good SSH client nor supports an external keyboard, as far as I know.
  - jbverschoor 5y ago
    Sounds like an easy 'dev mode' to add, and capture a large market of developers. For years I've been looking into eink for development etc.
    - pjerem 5y ago
      Remarkable is actually very open. Getting root access is as easy as going to the bottom of the About page to get the device's ip and its root password for SSH access. But still, the hacking scene is far from big. There is no SDK. You can do things with QT but for a lot of use cases, you have to work directly with the screen capacities. e-ink screens are not good old framebuffer screens. If you want to have nice performance (like, instant note taking), you have to actually "draw" things on it. You can draw things relatively fast on an e-ink device. But you can not draw a lot of things at the same time. That's why you have to wait maybe a full second between two pages of your book, but you can also have a blazing fast writing experience. So the display paradigm is totally different compared to a classic screen and you can't just port existing apps. Well, you can, but it'll be without the "smart refresh" part. So it will be slow. If you want something usable, you have to think what and when to draw things on the screen. Hence, few usefull apps exists on remarkable, because you have to build them from zero, with no real documentation, and to target a niche.

japanuspus 5y ago

Related: Discussion yesterday on "E-Ink Typewriter": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28426741 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28426741

Yaggo 5y ago

Is the refresh time of e-ink display suitable for convenient terminal use? (I just skimmed the article.) When reading an e-book, the page is typically refreshed 1-2 times per minute, while the typical CLI use is more fast-paced, not to mention TUI programs.

Y_Y 5y ago
Yes, if you're only making small updates and not dumping tons of lines all the time the even an old e-ink display is plenty fast. It works the same way when you're menuing on an e-reader.
BiteCode_dev 5y ago
The modern ones are quite impressive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTok6imfgoM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTok6imfgoM Still very expensive, but with tech it's just a matter of years
avnigo 5y ago
From the demos I've seen of other e-ink tablet devices like the Max Lumi, it seems like it can handle handwriting pretty smoothly [0]. So it could probably handle typical CLI use too, but higher refresh rates would of course mean higher battery usage. I think e-ink displays can handle local refresh zones, so it doesn't necessarily mean that it would have to refresh the whole screen. However, without pagination, a lot of our computer usage includes scrolling, and I would imagine that's more power intensive, and can maybe hit the refresh rate limits of e-ink displays. I guess that would be akin to a lot of phones now letting you pick a fixed or variable refresh rate depending on the experience and battery life you want to get out of the device. [0]: https://youtu.be/B8X7JPdgsh0?t=788 https://youtu.be/B8X7JPdgsh0?t=788

thomasfl 5y ago

I have been craving an e-ink laptop with a low voltage RISC processor for twenty years. It is impossible to open a normal laptop at night, after the kids have gone to bed, without becoming more awake than after a double espresso. I can't stare into a bright back lit screen at night. It often ends up with me sitting way to late up at night. At daytime, the often ridiculously bright back lit screen makes me unfocused and almost hypnotized.

codetrotter 5y ago
If I could afford it I would buy an Onyx BOOX Max Lumi https://onyxboox.com/boox_maxlumi https://onyxboox.com/boox_maxlumi It can be used as an external monitor for your laptop or desktop via HDMI port according to https://onyxboox.com/files/manuals/BOOX_MaxLumi_User_Manual.pdf https://onyxboox.com/files/manuals/BOOX_MaxLumi_User_Manual.... Screen Size 13.3 inch Resolution 2200*1650 Is it actually good enough to do real work on? I don't know, but I would be willing to try. Certainly looks interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_WjTgmwMRk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_WjTgmwMRk Also worth noting though, from the manual linked above: "In the state of secondary monitor, the device is only user for monitor reading. Touch for operation do not work in this state."
- maaneeack 5y ago
  have you seen the pinenote annoucement? https://www.pine64.org/2021/08/15/introducing-the-pinenote/ https://www.pine64.org/2021/08/15/introducing-the-pinenote/
  - codetrotter 5y ago
    Does it support HDMI in? Couldn’t find a mention about it immediately.
    - maaneeack 5y ago
      Not that I can see, here's the wiki: https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PineNote https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PineNote, the discord has a lot of info as well (that's where I saw it)

torgoguys 5y ago

Oh, hi all! I didn't my project to show up here today! This was just my private notes-to-self I'm using to organize a group to create this thing. These notes haven't been cleaned up to be public yet (near the end it gets particularly messy and the memory map has changed from the state shown on this page), but oh well, it's been found! I will answer any questions you may have. And if you want to help make this, my email address is in my profile. Programmers, electrical engineers, testers, documentation... whatever skills you have, I'm sure you can help!

pietervdvn 5y ago
There is also this project, might be interesting to get in touch: https://hackaday.io/project/179890-india-navi https://hackaday.io/project/179890-india-navi
- torgoguys 5y ago
  For sure! Thank you for the pointer to it.
the_biot 5y ago
I realize this might simply put me into the "not target demographic" group, but what makes this so useful as a terminal, that a laptop won't do? I could understand the no-distraction writing i.e. word processor use-case that some people think E-Ink would be good for, but that doesn't appear in your list of possible applications either.
- torgoguys 5y ago
  Use as a distraction-free word processor is listed as a use-case if you read far enough. (As mentioned, the notes are a bit of a mess and weren't cleaned up for public consumption.) But, yes, a laptop can do pretty much everything Paperterm can do. A laptop can do everything a Kindle can do. A laptop can do a huge percent of what your phone can do. If the advantages of this niche device (e.g., sunlight-readable display with no backlight/blue-light, it's insane battery life, a no-compromise keyboard, and it's always-ready-"never-off" state) doesn't appeal to you, then you're right, you're probably just not in the target demographic. Those in the target market find a lot to love in such specs. This is explicitly a niche product, not trying to be everything for everyone (which is closer to what a laptop does). EDIT: if you have a look at the (also not ready for announcement) root of the domain, you'll see a brief pitch: http://www.paperterm.org/ http://www.paperterm.org/ This page also has notes-to-self in brackets, and I'm not in a spot where I can fix it right now, so ignore that.

Ideabile 5y ago

I leave a picture of my setup that I previously posted in Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/o16nfa/pretty_please_of_seeing_emacs_running_on_my/ https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/o16nfa/pretty_please... This is a BOOX Note Air, with Termux + Mosh + TMUX and my editor of choice Emacs DOOM. I'm pretty happy of this setup. I went in holiday and I manage to use my editor to do some coding. The only side effect is that it requires internet for extra processing power, although you could still run all locally depending on your requirements.

nudpiedo 5y ago
I also have a BOOX note Air, and I am very happy with it. I even installed python and Jupyter LOCALLY. I had no problems processing a few millions of primes in milliseconds. However, the display is not good enough to program as growing code often requieres to fast refresh the screen while browsing code or following stacktraces, which is quite uncomfortable. Also the lack of syntax highlight but I guess some people could get used to those.
barrenko 5y ago
Hi, if I can ask, what is that keyboard? My local electronics chain had it listed as "Raspberry keyboard" but it's no longer available and I've been looking for it for months.
- Ideabile 5y ago
  The keyboard is a Dell K07M, but beside the cute form factor I will NOT recommend buying it. Maybe mine is damage, but I got a lot of ghosting in my key pressing. I’m looking to replace it, maybe with a K3.
- maicro 5y ago
  Dell logo in the top left corner, bluetooth indicator in the top right; nothing on the Dell website that matches it, but on Amazon and Newegg "Dell KW14M01" looks very similar (though neither have the logo top left, so could be different minor version or not actually Dell...).
5y ago

borzunov 5y ago

Years ago, I've made a program turning Pocketbook e-ink readers into computer monitors with some extra features: https://github.com/borzunov/remoteink https://github.com/borzunov/remoteink The update speed is quite good (comfortable for writing texts and browsing most websites) even when connecting via Wi-Fi.

type0 5y ago

In similar vein there's also Clockwork Pi DevTerm, I wish it would use e-ink display instead https://www.clockworkpi.com/devterm https://www.clockworkpi.com/devterm

James-Livesey 5y ago

Neat! I've been thinking of building something similar to this — a portable Linux machine that has an eInk display and little QWERTY keyboard, in a size that's a just a bit bigger than a smartphone. I've had a spare eInk display laying around for some time now, and it's about ~~5"~~ 3.7" in size, I think. I managed to get it working with a Pi Zero, and wrote a small Python script which captures the desktop, and then compares it to the previous capture, and then updates the bounds of where the capture is different. Somewhat slow with a Pi Zero, but still somewhat usable. I really need to look into the possibility of performing partial refreshes on the display to save it from having to invert the screen every time there is a change. I might try and use a Pi 4/ Pi CM4 to drive the whole thing — I believe the bottleneck mainly lies in sending the data over to the display, which the Pi Zero is unfortunately quite slow at doing. Plus, it would potentially be a bit more powerful/useful with the newer processor found on the Pi 4!

torgoguys 5y ago
Sounds like a neat project. Yes, partial refreshes help a lot, lot, lot! Battery life might end up becoming a problem if you intend for it to run on batteries. Compared to PaperTerm or smartphones, a Pi uses a lot of juice, but it is great for proof-of-concept!
- James-Livesey 5y ago
  Thanks! As you say, the Pi does chew up quite a bit of the battery life, but I hope that usage should last for at least a day or two. I plan to use a 3,000 mAh battery with the thing, which seems to be quite a lot — my Pixel 4 has 2,800 mAh _and_ that doesn't even have an eInk display! For the purposes of my project, I'm not really focused on trying to make the device extremely thin either. Something relatively chunky (like 1-1.5 cm) is sometimes quite nice and welcoming imo. I wrote up my own notes-to-self much like the author of the PaperTerm did, which provides a brief overview of my general ideas: https://github.com/inkySystems/resources https://github.com/inkySystems/resources It's a tiny bit outdated since it has no mention of my idea of using a Pi CM4. I haven't got many publicly-available info about what I've done so far with my board (seeing that it's a side-side-project of mine or something to that effect...) but it's something I'm experimenting with whenever I've got time on my hands!

pickledish 5y ago

Ha, this looks great, the list of goals seems really similar to a list I came up with a couple years ago for what I’d consider optimal for a writing device, too: http://www.willett.io/posts/device/ http://www.willett.io/posts/device/ So, I’m of course in total agreement, and interested! Is there any place we can sign up for some kind of mailing list?

torgoguys 5y ago
Sure, email me and I will send you updates. My email is in my profile.

JasonFruit 5y ago

I made something similar to this several years ago, and it was pretty usable considering that the software was thrown together in Python and the display I had did not support partial refresh. I got it so I could run terminal applications nicely, and even run X applications poorly. Then my little girl cut the pretty colored wires with scissors, and I didn't have the heart to do the hardware work over again. It wa a nice toy that might have become a good tool over time. Good luck! Here's my lousy code: https://github.com/ThePaperTop https://github.com/ThePaperTop

rbanffy 5y ago

> Also for simplicity of P0, the exact font used is the 14-line EGA font with the last line duplicated to the 15th-line. Nooooooooo! It's so horrible. There are a multitude of similarly sized bitmap fonts that bring back much nicer memories. IBM DOS ISO8 and ISO9, for instance: https://int10h.org/oldschool-pc-fonts/fontlist/font?ibm_dos_iso8#- https://int10h.org/oldschool-pc-fonts/fontlist/font?ibm_dos_... https://int10h.org/oldschool-pc-fonts/fontlist/font?ibm_dos_iso9#- https://int10h.org/oldschool-pc-fonts/fontlist/font?ibm_dos_... The Siemens PC-D https://int10h.org/oldschool-pc-fonts/fontlist/font?siemens_pc-d#- https://int10h.org/oldschool-pc-fonts/fontlist/font?siemens_... NEC APC3 8x16 https://int10h.org/oldschool-pc-fonts/fontlist/font?nec_apc3_8x16#- https://int10h.org/oldschool-pc-fonts/fontlist/font?nec_apc3... Cordata PPC-400 (one of my all-time favorites) https://int10h.org/oldschool-pc-fonts/fontlist/font?cordata_ppc-400#- https://int10h.org/oldschool-pc-fonts/fontlist/font?cordata_... Missing from this website is the Epson QX-10 and QX-16: https://i.imgur.com/WDrTBpC.png https://i.imgur.com/WDrTBpC.png Ping me if you want help with these.

torgoguys 5y ago
Yeah, I hear ya! It's just temporary. :-) EDIT: I see you added more detail. Yes, I will definitely ping you. Thanks!

tossaway9000 5y ago

I will happily crowdfund this, and I don't crowdfund anything...

nixpulvis 5y ago

For PF, I recommend "disconnected by default" I've been using my laptop like this for a while now and the peace of mind is easily worth the one command I need to run to connect each time. Especially on a distraction free device where I wouldn't expect a lot of notifications and synchronizations.

torgoguys 5y ago
This could only happen if we've got some local apps beyond the main (terminal) app. PF-timeframe, as you say. I will write the idea down so it doesn't get lost. It probably makes sense as a toggle, perhaps selected when initially setting up/getting a software tour of the device, depending on who is using the system. Writers for example, would want it, sysadmins, not so much.
- nixpulvis 5y ago
  I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding you but, why are local apps a prerequisite for controlled networking? Or is that just how you want to build it out? To be clear, all I'm suggesting is executing a command like `network connect <SSID>` instead of automatically connecting to saved networks. Maybe I'm just not sold on the concept of a truly remote terminal (like the real old terminals). Why should I have to carry around two devices when Linux could run on this device itself? Perhaps it's a lot more work? but there have been some efforts made on this already. I would like to casually launch vim and start writing, without worrying about connectivity. As an aside, also consider looking at how the reMarkable tablet implements ether/IP over USB, that has been working pretty well for me too, though I really wish it would broadcast an mDNS entry over WiFi as well.
  - torgoguys 5y ago
    Ah, I misunderstood you. Without the local apps, unless you are connected to a network, there is literally nothing to do with this device. That's because it is more-or-less a terminal only (excluding the few PF local apps). There are no notifications to speak of. A Linux OS based device can't meet the goals of the device from a couple of standpoints (power, availability, and the limited RAM/resources on the microcontroller pop to mind right away). Think of this as an instant on appliance. You turn on your old Commodore 64 and you are instantly able to type. I hear ya, when it comes to "just wanting to be able to open the thing and start typing into vim (or whatever)". We're working on sanding down those edges in a couple of ways--1) eventually, we'd like to point people to a very cheap, simple cloud linux deployment if they don't want to setup their own, with lots of conveniences. 2) regarding actually getting a network connection since we're talking terminal-only the bandwidth requirements are tiny; because of that, it looks like we're going to want to add cell network connectivity. This is early-stages in thinking this through, but there are plans in the $40 - $60 range for an ENTIRE YEAR that would give you unlimited bandwidth that is plenty fast for terminal purposes (128kbps after using a limited amount of faster 4G bandwidth). I will take a look at the reMarkable ether over USB. Thanks for pointing it out. It'll be a while before we've got a full USB stack working though. Remember, the software footprint for this device is tiny by design.

sirkiller 5y ago

Might be a possibility to incorporate with this project? Pumpkin OS https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28466858 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28466858